Absent from the body...

[Guest shiloh357]

And what of this???

Well, that is something where we will just have to disagree and leave it at that, as I do not see "day" as a necessary reference to the second coming. I see "day" as being connected to his "departure" and not Christ's "appearing." I realize that I am bucking popular consensus, but that is just how I see it. I do not see the context having anything to do with eschatology in that passage. I decided to leave it alone, but since you asked that is how I see it.

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Massorite,

Again I say. If it is not written in the bible that Lazarus's soul was dead then it was not. If our soul is not an immortal soul then why does the bible teach us that we will be abiding with God and His son in the New Jerusalem on a new earth for ever and ever. And why does the bible tell us that who ever is not written in the Lambs Book of Life will suffer in eternal torments or fire for ever and ever in the lake of fire?

Lazarus was a 'living soul' just as Adam was created a 'living soul'. When Lazarus died, he became a 'dead soul'. The entire being is a soul, he does not have a soul. He has a brain, which is the seat of the mind. This is where all conscious thought comes from. This is how doctors determine when one is dead, when they 'flat line', their heart stops and all brain activity has ceased. The Scripture I quoted is quite clear that Adam became a 'living soul'. Don't you believe that Scripture? I will quote a few more.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins it shall die (whether father or son) ......... 18:9 He (the living soul) that has walked in my statutes, and has kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he (that living soul) shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Massorite,

Now as to immortality, you wrote:

Again I say. If it is not written in the bible that Lazarus's soul was dead then it was not. If our soul is not an immortal soul then why does the bible teach us that we will be abiding with God and His son in the New Jerusalem on a new earth for ever and ever.

Here again as stated several times, man became a 'living soul', body and mind. He did not become an 'eternal soul' nor was he given an immortal soul. If he had been, there would have been no need of the 'tree of life'. Scripture states that man is mortal, a 'living soul', subject to death and corruption, all of him, the the need for resurrection of his entire being after death. Here are some Scriptures that show this:

Rom 2:7 To those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for (why would those who have immortality, need to seek for it, thus it is future) glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (what is this change that takes place)

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (here is when the change takes place): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible (subject to death and decay) must put on incorruption, and this mortal (subject to death) must put on immortality (here we have the change that takes place at the resurrection, when we put on immortality).

15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory (death is only swallowed up for the saved at the resurrection at the last day, when

[Christian]

Brother Massorite and Brother Dennis,

Greetings to you both !!!

As I believe that we three do hold to the same viewpoint regarding the lack of undisputable scriptural support for a "die today and immediately go to heaven" position, I would love to narrow down the focus of this thread to one area to help me fully comprehend both of your views on it. The conversation seems to be at a good point to do it as we have come full circle, and are about to begin re-hashing previously covered discussion. I wonder if you would both allow me to summarize what I believe to be your positions so I am clearer on where we are?

Brother Massorite:

Your posts are always a pleasure, and Post #99 was no exception. You make very interesting observations countering Brother Dennis' "dead is dead" viewpoint. It is intriguing to question the cognizance of both Abraham and the rich man, from the standpoint of "if those two why not Lazarus?". I still have my reservations about the fact that Lazarus says nothing, but without scripture that would say definitively that he does or doesn't I would only be over-speculating that position which goes against our "scriptural support" credo.

But in what I believe to be a summary of your position on the "location and state" of those deceased "in Christ", in layman's terms , it would be cognizant, awake/aware of who we are, waiting in Paradise(or garden), until our Lord returns for us?

Brother Dennis:

You also have a way of really getting me thinking my brother. One thing in particular, in post #108, jumped out at me today. Your inclusion of 1 Timothy 6:16 seems to cast another potential blow to the "heaven upon death" viewpoint.

(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If this scripture be true, and no man can approach, nor has no man ever seen, then how could all these "dead in heaven" be in His presence.

(The context of this verse revealing this as a fact to us, being a pre-cursor to His return (1 Timothy 6:14).

Now in what I believe to be a summary of your position, you believe that the dead in Christ are in a, let's call it a "suspended/limbo state" (in layman's terms), not cognizant, aware/awake, not conversing in a Paradise/garden, but on God's "inventory list" of souls/deceased to keep track of and under His "care"?

There is no need to hit the pulpit on this guy's, you don't need to convince me of the depth of your knowledge, I appreciate you both immensely and all you have contributed to the topic already.

Just try and keep it simple and tell me if I'm close on your viewpoints.

Much love to you both my brother's

in His service,

Christian

[Christian]

Brother Massorite and Brother Dennis,

Greetings to you both !!!

As I believe that we three do hold to the same viewpoint regarding the lack of undisputable scriptural support for a "die today and immediately go to heaven" position, I would love to narrow down the focus of this thread to one area to help me fully comprehend both of your views on it. The conversation seems to be at a good point to do it as we have come full circle, and are about to begin re-hashing previously covered discussion. I wonder if you would both allow me to summarize what I believe to be your positions so I am clearer on where we are?

Brother Massorite:

Your posts are always a pleasure, and Post #99 was no exception. You make very interesting observations countering Brother Dennis' "dead is dead" viewpoint. It is intriguing to question the cognizance of both Abraham and the rich man, from the standpoint of "if those two why not Lazarus?". I still have my reservations about the fact that Lazarus says nothing, but without scripture that would say definitively that he does or doesn't I would only be over-speculating that position which goes against our "scriptural support" credo.

But in what I believe to be a summary of your position on the "location and state" of those deceased "in Christ", in layman's terms , it would be cognizant, awake/aware of who we are, waiting in Paradise(or garden), until our Lord returns for us?

Brother Dennis:

You also have a way of really getting me thinking my brother. One thing in particular, in post #108, jumped out at me today. Your inclusion of 1 Timothy 6:16 seems to cast another potential blow to the "heaven upon death" viewpoint.

(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If this scripture be true, and no man can approach, nor has no man ever seen, then how could all these "dead in heaven" be in His presence.

(The context of this verse revealing this as a fact to us, being a pre-cursor to His return (1 Timothy 6:14).

Now in what I believe to be a summary of your position, you believe that the dead in Christ are in a, let's call it a "suspended/limbo state" (in layman's terms), not cognizant, aware/awake, not conversing in a Paradise/garden, but on God's "inventory list" of souls/deceased to keep track of and under His "care"?

There is no need to hit the pulpit on this guy's, you don't need to convince me of the depth of your knowledge, I appreciate you both immensely and all you have contributed to the topic already.

Just try and keep it simple and tell me if I'm close on your viewpoints.

Much love to you both my brother's

in His service,

Christian

[Guest shiloh357]

As I believe that we three do hold to the same viewpoint regarding the lack of undisputable scriptural support for a "die today and immediately go to heaven"

So how do you explain the dead in heven who are martyred for the Lord, in His presence calling on the Lord for vengence?

When Jesus told the theif on the cross that he would be with him Him in paradise on that very day, how could they have been in paradise if death is followed by an unconscious sleep?

I still have my reservations about the fact that Lazarus says nothing, but without scripture that would say definitively that he does or doesn't I would only be over-speculating that position which goes against our "scriptural support" credo.

The "lazurus" argument is pointless. You have both Abraham and the rich man carrying on conversation. The proves that there is no unconscious state for the dead whether they be christian or not.

Secondly, the passage proves that Lazurus is not asleep on the grounds that Lazurus is being comforted, which would be logically impossible if Lazurus were not consious enough to know the difference. Furthermore, Lazurus could be expected to dip his finger in water and cool the rich man's tongue if he were asleep. In fact Abraham's argument response was not did not include the fact that Lazurus was asleep and unable to do so. His argument response was that there was a gulf fixed making it impossible to cross, even if the request was to be granted.

(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If this scripture be true, and no man can approach, nor has no man ever seen, then how could all these "dead in heaven" be in His presence.

This is not talking about people in heaven. It is talking about the the fat that God is unapproachable by us in our present human condition. It is our human bodies that cannot tolerate the full weight of God's presnece, however, once we are free from this earthly tent, we are free to live and bask fully in God's presence.

As for "immortality." Our souls are eternal. Immortality and eternal are not the same thing. Immortality/mortality refers to our life within our human bodies.

We are not "immortal" but we are eternal. Our bodies will die. Immortality in the Greek is athanasia and means "exemption from death." Immortality properly understood refers to the exemption from mortal death of our physical body. Our spirits are not "mortal" by definition. Therefore they cannot be "immortal."

Our spirit is eternal. If a person rejects Christ, they will suffer for all eternity. They do not simply cease to exist. Hell is every bit an eternal place of God's presence.

[Christian]

shiloh,

Quite honestly I am basically having a conversation with my friends Massorite and Dennis within this thread at the moment, and I re-posted because I didn't want them to get side-tracked from my question with your barrage on me. I don't feel the need to do battle with you, nor do I have the desire to quite frankly.

I do appreciate your position, I just don't need your policing me right now quite honestly. You have your point, I have mine, they don't agree...and they won't. Can't you just leave it at that?

in His service,

Faithfully,

Christian

Brother Massorite and Brother Dennis,

Greetings to you both !!!

As I believe that we three do hold to the same viewpoint regarding the lack of undisputable scriptural support for a "die today and immediately go to heaven" position, I would love to narrow down the focus of this thread to one area to help me fully comprehend both of your views on it. The conversation seems to be at a good point to do it as we have come full circle, and are about to begin re-hashing previously covered discussion. I wonder if you would both allow me to summarize what I believe to be your positions so I am clearer on where we are?

Brother Massorite:

Your posts are always a pleasure, and Post #99 was no exception. You make very interesting observations countering Brother Dennis' "dead is dead" viewpoint. It is intriguing to question the cognizance of both Abraham and the rich man, from the standpoint of "if those two why not Lazarus?". I still have my reservations about the fact that Lazarus says nothing, but without scripture that would say definitively that he does or doesn't I would only be over-speculating that position which goes against our "scriptural support" credo.

But in what I believe to be a summary of your position on the "location and state" of those deceased "in Christ", in layman's terms , it would be cognizant, awake/aware of who we are, waiting in Paradise(or garden), until our Lord returns for us?

Brother Dennis:

You also have a way of really getting me thinking my brother. One thing in particular, in post #108, jumped out at me today. Your inclusion of 1 Timothy 6:16 seems to cast another potential blow to the "heaven upon death" viewpoint.

(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If this scripture be true, and no man can approach, nor has no man ever seen, then how could all these "dead in heaven" be in His presence.

(The context of this verse revealing this as a fact to us, being a pre-cursor to His return (1 Timothy 6:14).

Now in what I believe to be a summary of your position, you believe that the dead in Christ are in a, let's call it a "suspended/limbo state" (in layman's terms), not cognizant, aware/awake, not conversing in a Paradise/garden, but on God's "inventory list" of souls/deceased to keep track of and under His "care"?

There is no need to hit the pulpit on this guy's, you don't need to convince me of the depth of your knowledge, I appreciate you both immensely and all you have contributed to the topic already.

Just try and keep it simple and tell me if I'm close on your viewpoints.

Much love to you both my brother's

in His service,

Christian

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh,

Quite honestly I am basically having a conversation with my friends Massorite and Dennis within this thread at the moment, and I re-posted because I didn't want them to get side-tracked from my question with your barrage on me. I don't feel the need to do battle with you, nor do I have the desire to quite frankly.

I do appreciate your position, I just don't need your policing me right now quite honestly. You have your point, I have mine, they don't agree...and they won't. Can't you just leave it at that?

in His service,

Faithfully,

Christian

Who is "doing battle?" I simply raised points that you cannot respond to. I am not side tracking anything. My questions are exactly on topic.

Let's get one thing clear Christian: I WILL post when and where I see fit. I WILL resond to any post in any conversation. If you want something just between you and them do it in PM. Otherwise any response and any post you make publically is subject to response. I WILL continue "barrage" (as you call it) anything you say at any time, whether you respond to it or not.

THAT is where I will leave it, period.

[Christian]

No worries here brother, suit yourself.

I just didn't want you wasting your time addressing me, there's no need, I'm not listening.

It's a free "thread", respond away

[Guest shiloh357]

No worries here brother, suit yourself.

I just didn't want you wasting your time addressing me, there's no need, I'm not listening.

It's a free "thread", respond away

Its never a waste of time when, by my responses I can dissuade other lurkers and non respondents from buying into your poor theology. I am responding for their sakes not your's.