Absent from the body...

[givennewname]

My postion is, as I have already stated, that in the whole scene (parable) described to us, himself never speaks, nor do we get the concrete assurance that he is actively involved in this exchange. We only assume his state of consciousness because Abraham and the rich man are "awake" and "aware".But Lazarus himself says or does nothing

Dear Brother Christian,

Greetings in the precious name of the Lord,

I have written previously on this topic, I would like to clear some assumptions that you have brought out.

Firstly you gave a assertion that scripture should be believed only if scripture tells the fact in black and white. I have stated previously that Jesus taught in parables, Used allegories (he called his body the Temple which would be pulled down in 3 days, leaving every one mystified), in all his teachings. He even left the parables unexplained in most instances, therefore if you want to truth, you have to study a passage, with the help of the Holy Spirit, come to a conclusion.

The story above is not a parable, like I have stated previously and should not be read as such. Firstly all the characters are named, which does not happen in a parable. Secondly parables used by Jesus contain every day events, which every one can relate to. Not so in this case.

You mentioned that Abraham and the rich man talked while the Lazarus doesn't. Just because Lazarus does not talk doesn't mean he is in soul sleep. He is seen and recognised, he is asked to dip in finger in water to quench the rich man's torment. Surely such an action require consciousness. Many conscious people can't talk (the mutes) or they prefer not to talk too much being introvert like me. It does not imply souled sleep.

New creature

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Christian,

It looks like its going to get hot and heavy. It always does when you challenge 'popular orthodoxy' with the truth of the Scripture. Notice how few even deal with the Scriptural evidence presented and just respond with what they think contradicts these plain Scriptural truths. All Scripture must harmonize.

As I have stated I believe the Scriptures presented, which to me plainly state that when a 'soul dies' that soul is dead. No one has even mentioned that Scripture. I guess then that they don not believe what God says. Yes, I believe the 'dead souls are 'unconscious' as their brains, the seat of consciousness and all mental activity is dead also. This is what the Scriptures teach, it is not a frightening concept, for even the 'very hairs of our head are numbered' and we will be resurrected from the dead when Jesus returns. We can't enter into the presence of God until we 'put on immortality' for those who haven't, are 'consumed by the brightness of His coming'.

I appreciate you willingness to listen and and calmly discuss these issues without the 'usual knee jerk' reaction of those with their 'canned theology', and look at the evidence of Scripture. There is not much more to offer. The evidence is there, and no misunderstanding of Luke 16 or the 'souls under the altar' will change it.

God Bless you Brother,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

'The souls under the altar'

Just what are these souls doing under the altar. Are they hiding? What altar it this? Altars are for sacrifice, is there still sacrifice going on in heaven? I thought they were in the bosom of Abraham. Obviously there is something symbolic going on here for Revelation is a symbolic book, talking about beasts who are not real beasts but kingdoms, horns that are not real horns, but kings and such.

Scripture speaks of the 'blood of Abel' crying from the ground:

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper ?

4:10 And he said, What have you done ? the voice of your brother's blood cries unto me from the ground.

4:11 And now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened her mouth to receive your brother's blood from thy hand;

The altar where Jesus was sacrificed is this earth. Those who are slain for Jesus, are under that altar, the earth, and there blood symbolically cries out to God for vengeance, just as did Abel's for God never forgets.

That which is symbolic, needs to be filtered through the plainly revealed words of God, not 'church dogma'.

Where is it written that God can not use names in Parables, for He used Cain's name above, which was Parabolic in nature, for Cain was dead. His blood had no voice, he surely wasn't in heaven, for he would have told God personally/ Of course we know that God knew, for He observed the murder.

It is not good theology that uses 'symbolic teaching' to negate plain, straightforward teachings of Scripture.

[Willow99]

Brother Shiloh,

I've been anxiously awaiting your input:

It is not 'soul sleep', it is 'soul death', which Jesus referred to as sleep, for all will be resurrected from the 'first death', which is why Jesus also used the term of 'awaking the dead' or 'awaking from sleep'. The soul does not sleep in death, He has died, has no life, for the soul is the entire being. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Death is death, life is life.

When one dies all brain activity ceases, the brain, from which all thoughts and consciousness arise, does not leave the body, but dies, ceases to function, turns to dust again, thus the Scripture which says that the thoughts of the dead perish, cease, are no more. He awaits the resurrection of his entire being, body and mind. Thus upon resurrection, he awakes, becomes alive again, brain starts to function again.

Since God breathed into man the 'breath of life', and he became a 'living soul', when the 'breath of life' goes back to God, He becomes a 'dead soul'. This is why the need of resurrection of the 'dead soul', to bring him back to life, back to being a 'living soul'.

This is what the Scriptures teach:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is a very clear statement of truth. You see Scripture teaches that man 'became a living soul', not that he has an 'immortal soul' which roams around the cosmos when he dies. This has been the teaching of all Pagan Religions since Ancient Babylon and is currently the main teaching of 'New Age' religion. This belief is what causes them to seek to consult with the dead. In doing so they don't communicate with departed souls, but the Devil himself. Thus we have proof that it is a 'Pagan concept'.

When God formed man, he was still a dead soul, I guess you could say he was sleeping, but he was dead. He had all the components of man, body and mind, but lacked life, the breath of life. When He was given the breath of life, His body and mind came alive, thus the 'dead soul' became a 'living soul'.

In Luke, Jesus is teaching in parables. It never says that They went immediately to heaven or hell, at best it just tells of a time when this would occur, or because it is a parable, just is teaching a point, that there was torment and there was a place of safety. The main point of the parable is that though one rose from the dead, they would not believe.

All Scripture must harmonize. The above clear statement, coupled with others I have posted must harmonize with this parable told by Jesus. Thus Scripture cannot be made to contradict Scripture. The clearest Scriptures help interpret those which are less clear, such as parables.

God bless,

Dennis

I agree with your post. Well said.

[Willow99]

Brother Shiloh,

I've been anxiously awaiting your input:

It is not 'soul sleep', it is 'soul death', which Jesus referred to as sleep, for all will be resurrected from the 'first death', which is why Jesus also used the term of 'awaking the dead' or 'awaking from sleep'. The soul does not sleep in death, He has died, has no life, for the soul is the entire being. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Death is death, life is life.

When one dies all brain activity ceases, the brain, from which all thoughts and consciousness arise, does not leave the body, but dies, ceases to function, turns to dust again, thus the Scripture which says that the thoughts of the dead perish, cease, are no more. He awaits the resurrection of his entire being, body and mind. Thus upon resurrection, he awakes, becomes alive again, brain starts to function again.

Since God breathed into man the 'breath of life', and he became a 'living soul', when the 'breath of life' goes back to God, He becomes a 'dead soul'. This is why the need of resurrection of the 'dead soul', to bring him back to life, back to being a 'living soul'.

This is what the Scriptures teach:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is a very clear statement of truth. You see Scripture teaches that man 'became a living soul', not that he has an 'immortal soul' which roams around the cosmos when he dies. This has been the teaching of all Pagan Religions since Ancient Babylon and is currently the main teaching of 'New Age' religion. This belief is what causes them to seek to consult with the dead. In doing so they don't communicate with departed souls, but the Devil himself. Thus we have proof that it is a 'Pagan concept'.

When God formed man, he was still a dead soul, I guess you could say he was sleeping, but he was dead. He had all the components of man, body and mind, but lacked life, the breath of life. When He was given the breath of life, His body and mind came alive, thus the 'dead soul' became a 'living soul'.

In Luke, Jesus is teaching in parables. It never says that They went immediately to heaven or hell, at best it just tells of a time when this would occur, or because it is a parable, just is teaching a point, that there was torment and there was a place of safety. The main point of the parable is that though one rose from the dead, they would not believe.

All Scripture must harmonize. The above clear statement, coupled with others I have posted must harmonize with this parable told by Jesus. Thus Scripture cannot be made to contradict Scripture. The clearest Scriptures help interpret those which are less clear, such as parables.

God bless,

Dennis

If when one dies all brain activity ceases then how is it that the rich man was able to know and fell that he was in torments. How is it that he was able to talk to Abraham and how was it that he was able to reason and ask Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his family about the torments? Wasn't the rich man dead also? And if he was dead what was it that was suffering the torments? As you said the flesh turns back to the dust which means that the brain was no longer. Right? What was the difference between the rich man and Lazarus?

If death is death then how can you account for the defeat of death by Jesus on the cross. In other words when we die in the flesh, death in the after life has already been conquered or swallowed up by Christ so Lazarus was not dead but in a state of peaceful sleep where he will rest until he is raised from the grave alive as he was already raised once.

If Lazarus was dead and couldn't feel or know anything then the rich man should have been in the same state because both of them were dead because death is death. But they weren't.

Again I say. If it is not written in the bible that Lazarus's soul was dead then it was not. If our soul is not an immortal soul then why does the bible teach us that we will be abiding with God and His son in the New Jerusalem on a new earth for ever and ever. And why does the bible tell us that who ever is not written in the Lambs Book of Life will suffer in eternal torments or fire for ever and ever in the lake of fire?

What you are teaching does not line up with scripture at all because scripture says the opposite of what you are saying.

How ever if you can show some scripture that tells us that Lazarus's soul is or was dead and will not exist for an eternity (or the rich man for that matter).

Hi Brother,

I find no support from the bible that the soul lives forever. Actually, it says the opposite: the soul that sins shall die.

Willow99

[Guest shiloh357]

As I have stated I believe the Scriptures presented, which to me plainly state that when a 'soul dies' that soul is dead. No one has even mentioned that Scripture. I guess then that they don not believe what God says. Yes, I believe the 'dead souls are 'unconscious' as their brains, the seat of consciousness and all mental activity is dead also. This is what the Scriptures teach, it is not a frightening concept, for even the 'very hairs of our head are numbered' and we will be resurrected from the dead when Jesus returns. We can't enter into the presence of God until we 'put on immortality' for those who haven't, are 'consumed by the brightness of His coming'.

The soul being unconcious is one thing. The spirit of a man being unconscious is a different thing. That is where the problem with "soul-sleep" comes into light.

A lot of people use "soul" and "spirit" interchangablly, and they are not. The spirit of a man is eternal, the soul is not. When may people teach soul sleep, they are saying that it is spirit that remains in the body, in the ground in a suspended, "sleep" state until the resurrection and there is simply no scriptural support for that teaching. So far, nothing presented in favor of this theory actually states that man remains spiritually "asleep" until the resurrection, and no amount of confusing concepts like "immoratality" and "eternal" will change that.

Just what are these souls doing under the altar. Are they hiding? What altar it this? Altars are for sacrifice, is there still sacrifice going on in heaven? I thought they were in the bosom of Abraham. Obviously there is something symbolic going on here for Revelation is a symbolic book, talking about beasts who are not real beasts but kingdoms, horns that are not real horns, but kings and such.

There is glaring problem and that is the mentioning of those martyrs under the altar is not written in symbolic language

It becomes way too convenient, when we come up with a problem in the book of Revelation to dismiss it as "symbolic." When the Bible uses symbolism it indicates it. However the account of the martyrs does not possess any textual indicators that we would expect to show us that figurative or symbolic language is being used.

Revelation is rich in symbolism but not EVERYTHING in the book of Revelation is symbolic. That is just really convenient crutch.

If the textual indicators cannot be produced to show #1 that the text is symoblic and #2. What it is symbolic of, then the only interpration that remains is the literal interpretation by default. If no symbolic indicators can be produced, what we have are people who died in Christ and are not "sleeping" at all.

It is up to the soul-sleep crowd to demonstrate the symbolism by showing the martyrs as symbolic or simply have the courage and integrity admit that there is a text that provides a serious problem for their theololgy.

[Pilgrim7]

Willow,

Thank you for yor kind words and gracious reply.

God Bless you, Sister,

Denniis

[givennewname]

I find no support from the bible that the soul lives forever. Actually, it says the opposite: the soul that sins shall die.

Willow99

That scripture verse is quoted out of context. Go back to Ezekiel and read it in context.

[Massorite]

shiloh,

Quite honestly I am basically having a conversation with my friends Massorite and Dennis within this thread at the moment, and I re-posted because I didn't want them to get side-tracked from my question with your barrage on me. I don't feel the need to do battle with you, nor do I have the desire to quite frankly.

I do appreciate your position, I just don't need your policing me right now quite honestly. You have your point, I have mine, they don't agree...and they won't. Can't you just leave it at that?

in His service,

Faithfully,

Christian

Brother Massorite and Brother Dennis,

Greetings to you both !!!

As I believe that we three do hold to the same viewpoint regarding the lack of undisputable scriptural support for a "die today and immediately go to heaven" position, I would love to narrow down the focus of this thread to one area to help me fully comprehend both of your views on it. The conversation seems to be at a good point to do it as we have come full circle, and are about to begin re-hashing previously covered discussion. I wonder if you would both allow me to summarize what I believe to be your positions so I am clearer on where we are?

Brother Massorite:

Your posts are always a pleasure, and Post #99 was no exception. You make very interesting observations countering Brother Dennis' "dead is dead" viewpoint. It is intriguing to question the cognizance of both Abraham and the rich man, from the standpoint of "if those two why not Lazarus?". I still have my reservations about the fact that Lazarus says nothing, but without scripture that would say definitively that he does or doesn't I would only be over-speculating that position which goes against our "scriptural support" credo.

But in what I believe to be a summary of your position on the "location and state" of those deceased "in Christ", in layman's terms , it would be cognizant, awake/aware of who we are, waiting in Paradise(or garden), until our Lord returns for us?

Brother Dennis:

You also have a way of really getting me thinking my brother. One thing in particular, in post #108, jumped out at me today. Your inclusion of 1 Timothy 6:16 seems to cast another potential blow to the "heaven upon death" viewpoint.

(16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If this scripture be true, and no man can approach, nor has no man ever seen, then how could all these "dead in heaven" be in His presence.

(The context of this verse revealing this as a fact to us, being a pre-cursor to His return (1 Timothy 6:14).

Now in what I believe to be a summary of your position, you believe that the dead in Christ are in a, let's call it a "suspended/limbo state" (in layman's terms), not cognizant, aware/awake, not conversing in a Paradise/garden, but on God's "inventory list" of souls/deceased to keep track of and under His "care"?

There is no need to hit the pulpit on this guy's, you don't need to convince me of the depth of your knowledge, I appreciate you both immensely and all you have contributed to the topic already.

Just try and keep it simple and tell me if I'm close on your viewpoints.

Much love to you both my brother's

in His service,

Christian

Yes! As I was pondering on this post today I remembered about Samuel, Saul and the witch of Endore. When Samuel was conjured up He said "Why have you disquieted me"? The word "Disquieted" means to be angered or disturbed or irritated, agitated and so on. And since Samuel asked the question we know that in death he was able to think, get angry, to reason and ask questions. He was shall we say semiconscious. My opinion on this is that Samuel was resting in the same kind of sleep that Lazarus was but was awakened which made him angry or agitated.

I believe that when we die it will be like taking a nap. And when we wake up it will be time to stand before the Lord in heaven as an acceptable gift from His Son.

[Christian]

Yes! As I was pondering on this post today I remembered about Samuel, Saul and the witch of Endore. When Samuel was conjured up He said "Why have you disquieted me"? The word "Disquieted" means to be angered or disturbed or irritated, agitated and so on. And since Samuel asked the question we know that in death he was able to think, get angry, to reason and ask questions. He was shall we say semiconscious. My opinion on this is that Samuel was resting in the same kind of sleep that Lazarus was but was awakened which made him angry or agitated.

I believe that when we die it will be like taking a nap. And when we wake up it will be time to stand before the Lord in heaven as an acceptable gift from His Son.

This mirrors my thinking when asking about the silence of Lazarus, and how there is no unquestionable, incontrovertible "words" spoken by him in Luke's parable. Only cross-"rationalization" and "assumption" makes one arrive at the position that he is an active part of the interaction. Here Samuel, upon "rising" possesses a conversational ability, but only upon being disturbed/disquieted to be "brought up". We do not haveunquestionable, incontrovertible scriptural verse evidence which allows us to know if he possessed and utilized this ability while he was "down" where he was (grave/paradise). I don't think it impossible to comprehend that the "good" get to "rest" and await Christ, and the "bad" get to be "awake" so that their punishment/torment may be felt.

What is also interesting about 1 Samuel 28:19 is that whether "awake or asleep", Samuel "rises" having a foreknowledge of events that have not yet occured relating to Saul, his sons, and the Israelites.

Blessings to you brother,

in His service,

Christian