Absent from the body...

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Massorite,

Thanks for your gracious reply. There is much to be understood still. I do not ascribe to the teaching that Jesus took all the just to heaven yet. The Scriptures say that He resurrected many, but not all.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Here we see that many were raised, not all, and appeared to many but not all. I believe these are the ones that He took to heaven with Him. Seeing that Moses was seen talking to Jesus prior to this, I believe that he was resurrected prior to this resurrection.

God at times gives us a glimpse of His glorious presence here an now. I find that it happens at different times, not just in fellowship or in church. It happens in His Temple, of which you and I are, His temple where He resides and fills with His presence. Yet we are to walk by faith, not feeling, so these times are precious, but fleeting, somewhat random, just a for-taste of being with Him eternally.

God bless you fellow seeker,

Dennis

[Christian]

Greetings Brother Dennis,

Death is death, but is called sleep for all will be awakened from the sleep of death in one of the Resurrections.

So your position then, if I understand you correctly, is that in death we all "sleep" the sleep of death.

Only a select few (as you believe Moses) have already been resurrected, more likely than not at the event described in Matthew 27:52-53?

Matthew 27:52-53

(52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

(53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Question: Then are you advocating what is called "soul sleep", or do you believe in a "holding place" or "garden" considered "Paradise", where concious souls await the Resurrection?

Luke 9:32

(32) But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

As I read Luke 32, it seems to be saying that they were very tired, for that was their expression when one was tired. The verse goes on to say that when they were awake, literal translation is when they had become alert or shaken off their drowsiness, they saw Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.

My study of this verse and the origins of the word used for "awake"(G1235) reveal the same thing to me. I have heard some try to explain this encounter as a "dream", thereby rationalizing other positions they held. But this verse is clear in it's message, and cannot be misinterpreted without some use of "artistic license". So we are in agreement that they were "wide awake" during this event.

(In reference to Jude 1:9)I am not sure where you have you have received this concept. I see no hint of it in Scripture. I try not to make a Scripture say more than it does. I see no mention anywhere in Scripture about Satan wanting to make an earthly temple to Moses. No offense meant here, for I perceive that you are just trying to stimulate discussion, but it sounds like another of man's speculations which one would hear from the Pulpit or some Commentary. As I read Jude, I only see contention about the body of Moses.

I would never want to stimulate discussion that misleads anyone who might read it, just for the sake of having something to talk about. My purpose is to flush out "theories" some hold, and expose them to the light of truth via the Scriptures. In all fairness your view on the controversy over Moses' body being over his "resurrection", also has very little scriptural support. Other than the coincidence of his appearing at the meeting on the Mount we are told nowhere else, clearly, that this is what happened to Moses. It would be just as reasonable to accept that God in His infinite capability, somehow, that our finite minds cannot understand, was able to have him present there with Jesus and Elijah. It stands to reason that some ask "why only some were resurrected in Luke 9:32, and not all?", it smacks of favoritism which a just God would not promote I don't feel. So we can't say definitively that Moses was one of those spoken of in Matthew 27:52-53.

If the Devil wanted to build a temple to Moses, he would do it whether he knew the actual location or not. Who could prove him wrong. Just look at the temple built on the wrong Mt. Sinai. I see that when God raised Moses, Satan contended or disputed with Him. I see no other reason for Satan to dispute with God over the body of Moses. As I see it, the fact that no one knows the location has nothing to do with whether he was raised or not.

To clarify: It was not that Satan wanted to build a temple, but that he wanted the body and burial place to be known by the Jews, so that given their historic tendancy to be easily led astray, they might begin some sort of "Moses worship" there eventually. This would amount to another Jewish slap in the face to God, which Satan is so fond of propagating. Also, why would he contend with Michael only over Moses, and not all the Old Testament saints, still covered in sin, being resurrected?

I am not sure who buried Moses, for the Scriptures do not specifically tell us. To me it does not matter, for he died and was buried. It could have been Joshua, his minister, or it could have been an Angel, or even God Himself. What God has not revealed, I don't need to know. I try to spend my time seeking to understand and follow that which God has revealed in His Word. The more I learn, the more I see that there is to learn.

The reason I asked was twofold: 1), in some translations the "He" is capitalized in Deuteronomy 34:6, which to me would only denote God (or Jesus). And 2), if that is the case then why else would He have handled this burial "personally", unlike any other person who ever existed before?

God's blessings to you my brother,

His faithful servant,

Christian

[Pilgrim7]

Greetings Brother Christian,

Question: Then are you advocating what is called "soul sleep", or do you believe in a "holding place" or "garden" considered "Paradise", where concious souls await the Resurrection?

I believe exactly what Jesus taught in John 11. Lazarus was dead, he was in the tomb and he was raised from the tomb. yet He referred to it as sleep for He could raise him from it. I believe that is called 'soul sleep' but it is what Jesus is clearly teaching here. There is not greater authority that Jesus. You see, I also believe the Scriptures when they teach that man was created a 'living soul', not that he was given a soul. He was made from the dust, and God breathed into him and he became a 'living soul', Gen 2:7. Thus Lazarus, who was a 'living soul' with the breath of life, became a 'dead soul', the breath of life having ceased. Thus it required the miracle of God to revive him.

I would never want to stimulate discussion that misleads anyone who might read it, just for the sake of having something to talk about. My purpose is to flush out "theories" some hold, and expose them to the light of truth via the Scriptures. In all fairness your view on the controversy over Moses' body being over his "resurrection", also has very little scriptural support. Other than the coincidence of his appearing at the meeting on the Mount we are told nowhere else, clearly, that this is what happened to Moses. It would be just as reasonable to accept that God in His infinite capability, somehow, that our finite minds cannot understand, was able to have him present there with Jesus and Elijah. It stands to reason that some ask "why only some were resurrected in Luke 9:32, and not all?", it smacks of favoritism which a just God would not promote I don't feel. So we can't say definitively that Moses was one of those spoken of in Matthew 27:52-53.

Apologies, I did not intend to imply you were trying to mislead, just explore different avenues as you say. I totally agree with you that there is no direct statement on Moses being resurrected, it just seems to me that this is a more plausible explanation in that He was seen alive talking to Jesus, not in vision but in reality. As to favoritism, I don't see it that way. to resurrect Moses prior to this occurrence shows no more favoritism than for God to translate Enoch and Elijah prior to the translation of the 'Living Saints' at the coming of Christ. Also Jesus only took 3 disciples with Him on the mount, Peter, James and John. Yet I don't see it as favoritism, but just the sovereign will of God. I don't think that we should apply man's reasoning or judgment to what God does.

To clarify: It was not that Satan wanted to build a temple, but that he wanted the body and burial place to be known by the Jews, so that given their historic tendancy to be easily led astray, they might begin some sort of "Moses worship" there eventually. This would amount to another Jewish slap in the face to God, which Satan is so fond of propagating. Also, why would he contend with Michael only over Moses, and not all the Old Testament saints, still covered in sin, being resurrected?

I understand what you are saying, but see not an iota or hint of that in the Scripturesing. Again it would seem that we are constructing something not revealed. It only speaks of Moses, thus that is all I deal with. That doesn't mean that there were not others, but this is the only instance recorded, therefore I comment on it. That being said, I have no more to offer.

The reason I asked was twofold: 1), in some translations the "He" is capitalized in Deuteronomy 34:6, which to me would only denote God (or Jesus). And 2), if that is the case then why else would He have handled this burial "personally", unlike any other person who ever existed before?

Here again I don't like to speculate on the meaning of Scripture, for my wisdom is foolishness with God, and so I don't take a position on who buried him. On his resurrection I do see some evidence, although not conclusive I admit, and this is what the Spirit showed me when I asked, and thus I believe it.

Most of my energy is spent on understanding just what God requires of me to be ready for the coming of Jesus.

God bless you in you endeavors,

Dennis

[Christian]

Greetings Brother Dennis,

Always a pleasure to find a response from you. It brings that same sense of joy to me that the apostles must have felt when they finally received their letters from their beloved brothers in Christ, the openings of which we are all too familiar with from our New Testament (of which I believe 2 Timothy 1:1-2 is still my favorite). The days of flowing prose are behind us I guess, but how grand it must have been to open letters with statements like "Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;".

Well I do hope that should we exhaust this topic that we will continue in our discourse together on others. I appreciate your approach, views, and demeanor more than you will know brother, and I've got lot's of further discussion ideas.

Moving onward...

Question: Then are you advocating what is called "soul sleep", or do you believe in a "holding place" or "garden" considered "Paradise", where concious souls await the Resurrection?

I believe exactly what Jesus taught in John 11. Lazarus was dead, he was in the tomb and he was raised from the tomb. yet He referred to it as sleep for He could raise him from it. I believe that is called 'soul sleep' but it is what Jesus is clearly teaching here. There is not greater authority that Jesus.

I believe that you answered one part of the question but I'm curious to know if you have a view on the other? Others in this thread have espoused scriptural support of both views, one being the "dirt nap", and the other being the temporary "communal gathering place" of souls in Christ, known by many as Paradise. I'm not asking you to "theorize" dear brother, merely if you hold to a certain position given your understanding of the scriptures. I myself believe that there are certain clues left behind in the scriptures, more than anything, merely assuring us that we are not to fear death or what is beyond it, for those in Christ will be in His care. Knowing our nature, and our propensity for tangible safety, I think He gave us just enough to keep us from worry. The rest is probably more than we can possibly fathom in our current plane of existence, and it is at those moments that I stand with you on your statement about not "speculating" on scriptures in any way.

As to favoritism, I don't see it that way. to resurrect Moses prior to this occurrence shows no more favoritism than for God to translate Enoch and Elijah prior to the translation of the 'Living Saints' at the coming of Christ. Also Jesus only took 3 disciples with Him on the mount, Peter, James and John. Yet I don't see it as favoritism, but just the sovereign will of God. I don't think that we should apply man's reasoning or judgment to what God does.

Very well put

The reason I asked was twofold: 1), in some translations the "He" is capitalized in Deuteronomy 34:6, which to me would only denote God (or Jesus).

Here again I don't like to speculate on the meaning of Scripture, for my wisdom is foolishness with God, and so I don't take a position on who buried him.

Nor do I necessarily, but the assignment of authority given to the "He" in this verse through capitalization is something that can make some go "Hmmmmmmmmmmmm"

Most of my energy is spent on understanding just what God requires of me to be ready for the coming of Jesus.

As is mine brother. Apologetics is not my strength, but I do feel the need to swim into the raging current of mis-instruction when necessary, to pull people back to the reality of scripture and away from man made doctrines. This is why my approach is what it is... scripture, scripture, scripture for instruction. Anything else is "opinion", and that is a reality that must be understood better by our brothers and sisters.

God's blessings be with you and upon you brother,

His faithful servant,

Christian

[Christian]

*bump* for Pilgrim7

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Christian,

You wrote:

I believe that you answered one part of the question but I'm curious to know if you have a view on the other? Others in this thread have espoused scriptural support of both views, one being the "dirt nap", and the other being the temporary "communal gathering place" of souls in Christ, known by many as Paradise. I'm not asking you to "theorize" dear brother, merely if you hold to a certain position given your understanding of the scriptures. I myself believe that there are certain clues left behind in the scriptures, more than anything, merely assuring us that we are not to fear death or what is beyond it, for those in Christ will be in His care. Knowing our nature, and our propensity for tangible safety, I think He gave us just enough to keep us from worry. The rest is probably more than we can possibly fathom in our current plane of existence, and it is at those moments that I stand with you on your statement about not "speculating" on scriptures in any way.

I believe what Jesus teaches as I said, that the dead sleep until the resurrection. I find no fear in that. It is complete assurance of being resurrected. There is no fear in sleep, we do it each night, no need to worry whether we will wake up the next day. You see sleep has no concept of time or fear. You go to sleep and then you wake up. This has always been a difficult concept to grasp, most of the Jews could not grasp it, as evidenced by the Apostles reaction to what Jesus said. It seems that things are pretty much the same today. Man, who is a living soul, sleeps in Christ, who will awake him in the 'Resurrection of the Just'. He will not be aware of any time having past, but will be raised up to meet Christ in the air just before the Living are raised up.

Nor do I necessarily, but the assignment of authority given to the "He" in this verse through capitalization is something that can make some go "Hmmmmmmmmmmmm"

The capitalization is just a decision of man, it is not necessarily of God. I cannot see that it matters, but some can speculate if they wish.

As is mine brother. Apologetics is not my strength, but I do feel the need to swim into the raging current of mis-instruction when necessary, to pull people back to the reality of scripture and away from man made doctrines. This is why my approach is what it is... scripture, scripture, scripture for instruction. Anything else is "opinion", and that is a reality that must be understood better by our brothers and sisters.

Agreed. It is important to understand what is truth on these issues that deal with heaven, judgment and Jesus coming, for the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth, that we should all be of one mind as your signature states. When there are so many divergent opinions, this shows that the Holy Spirit is not able to do His job, that there is another spirit leading many. It is one thing to not understand, but another to state categorically that something is truth, when it contrary to the clear meaning of the Word of God, this comes from a different spirit. Since the word says that we are sanctified by the truth, correct understanding becomes very important. Jesus sheep are to be led by the Spirit of truth, into all truth. The sad thing today is that so many hold different positions and cannot even state why, except that they heard it from the pulpit. One verse is repeated over and over again, until it becomes the only truth that many know. One Scripture is used to negate much of the Word of God, which is not of the Spirit of God.

God Bless,

Your brother in Christ, Dennis

[Christian]

The way the word "sleep" from John 11:11 is used is simply to denote death. It is not meant as we use the term, to be unconscious. It is simply a euphemism for being dead. It does not speak to a persons condition after death either way. It simply means the person's earthly life has ended.

The rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus did not enter some kind of soul sleep. He was being tormented in hell. He did not go into some kind of suspended animation. Lazarus also was not in some kind of limbo, he was in Paradise, conscious of what was going on.

This point about Lazarus has been brought up in this thread already, but thought that your views might bring new life into this discussion Brother Cobalt.

Luke 16:23-31

(23) And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

(29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

(30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

(31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

My postion is, as I have already stated, that in the whole scene (parable) described to us, Lazurus himself never speaks, nor do we get the concrete assurance that he is actively involved in this exchange. We only assume his state of conciousness because Abraham and the rich man are "awake" and "aware". But Lazarus himself says or does nothing.

Your thoughts?

in Christ,

Christian

[patricia1]

Yes it most certainly is!!!!

[Christian]

My postion is, as I have already stated, that in the whole scene (parable) described to us, Lazurus himself never speaks, nor do we get the concrete assurance that he is actively involved in this exchange. We only assume his state of conciousness because Abraham and the rich man are "awake" and "aware". But Lazarus himself says or does nothing.

Your thoughts?

in Christ,

Christian

Luke 16:22-31 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

I think it can be inferred from the text, even if not explicitelly (sp) stated

We will have to agree to disagree on this then

1. The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to him, so the rich man obviously had the expectation that Lazarus could come to him, if Abraham would allow it.

Again, inference does not equate with certainty here, it would be your educated opinion about the meaning.

"Those who want to go" and the fixed gulf. If the people were in an unconscious state, they could not "want" to go anywhere, they would be unaware of their surroundings and where they were, and there would be no need for the gulf. This implies that these people are physically active. The scripture also speaks to people being unable to cross over from either side, so people in both sides are obviously(?) active.

Again, from my previous statement, nothing is "obvious" here. It could be just as well "implied" that the "those who want to go" is merely an inference to the innate desire those in Paradise would have wanting to help those they know in torments if it were areality, or possible. Either way brother, I find nothing definitive in your position so again I'll just leave it at agreeing to disagree.

in His service,

Christian

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

"Those who want to go" and the fixed gulf. If the people were in an unconscious state, they could not "want" to go anywhere, they would be unaware of their surroundings and where they were, and there would be no need for the gulf. This implies that these people are physically active. The scripture also speaks to people being unable to cross over from either side, so people in both sides are obviously(?) active.

Again, from my previous statement, nothing is "obvious" here. It could be just as well "implied" that the "those who want to go" is merely an inference to the innate desire those in Paradise would have wanting to help those they know in torments if it were areality, or possible. Either way brother, I find nothing definitive in your position so again I'll just leave it at agreeing to disagree.

This is really intellectual suicide. The parable illustrates that soul sleep is simply not an accurate position. The rich man wuold not be talking to Abraham and Abraham would not be talking to him if soul sleep were an accurate theological position. It is not hard at all.