rapture i think not

[Guest shiloh357]

Good afternoon brother. No diversions here....In anycase I said I wont continue on with you and I wont. You have given just as much evidence that you have commited to me...so I guess we are both unable to support our claims.

No, you don't understand. I am not the one making any claims. You are the one making the claims. I am disagreeing with your claims. The person making the claims has the burden of proof. I say your claims are wrong. If you cannot provide the evidence, your position by default is wrong. I don't have to prove what is wrong by default.

Your inability to provide the support needed to bolster your claim, proves your position is without foundation. That is just basic debate logic and practice.

One thing. I do ask for your forgiveness for these comments.

hmm. I didnt' take any offense.

[Guest shiloh357]

We will not EVER in this life be 100% mature or 100% like Christ, so is really not even relevant to the issue of the rapture. In fact, it seems to be a diversion from your inability to support the assertions you have made in the last couple of days or so. Salvation, all of it, is a gift and when a person is saved, they possess all of salvation whether they have been saved for 1 day, or 100 years. A person who gets saved 5 minutes before the rapture will go up with the oldest and most mature Christians in the world and, heretofore, you have provided exactly ZERO biblical evidence to say otherwise.

I would like to ask a question concerning this statement in bold. Let us walk together.

Now you said salvation all of it is a gift. Does that include sanctification, and glorification?

Absolutely.

[Guest shiloh357]

How do you recieve the gift of sanctification? Where is this shown? Sanctification is our maturing in this Christian life...correct?

Can one (who spends a minimul amout time with God) be given as a gift the same measure of maturity as one (who allows God to deal with them thoroughly)? Does that make sense.

There are two sides to Sanctification. There is an objective and subjective side. In other words there is a spiritual sanctification from sin that occurs the moment you are born again. However, there is also the daily practical, subjective side which pertains to daily being conformed more and more into the image of Christ. The objecive, spiritual sanctification in Christ, is a one time event. Everyone is sanctifed the same way and to the same degree.

God separates the light from the darkness. Likewise, we are now spiritually separated from sin, and have been brought back to God from whom we were formerly separated.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

We have been called out of darkness, in order that we might reveal his praises, that we might reveal His glory to the nations. We were once darkness, but now we are light in the Lord. (Eph. 5:8) We have been separated (sanctified) from sin.

The message of the Cross of Messiah is deliverance. The message of the Blood of Messiah is forgiveness. The blood forgives you of what you have done. The cross delivers you from what you are. It is the finished work of Messiah on the cross that makes you a "child of Light," or a child of God. It is the cross that separates you from your past, and delivers you from guilt, condemnation, bitterness, resentment and fear. God has taken your past, and all that you have done, and all that you were, and He has thrown them as far from Him as the East is from the West.

He has changed you, and recreated you, and has caused you to become "light in the Lord." You are no longer a member of Adam's race, but are now placed in Messiah and have been seated with Him in heavenly places.

While we are to actively separate ourselves from the worldly influences and sinful vices, we are first of all, sanctified in Christ (1 Cor. 1:2). This is done by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 15: 16; 1 Cor. 6:11) We sanctified by the offering of Jesus on the cross. (Heb. 10:10, 14)

[Isa]

You need to be very careful of what you say kari,the bible clearly states that we will be here for the trib ,until the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.

You might find yourself rejecting the true God of the bible.

The god you're trying to push isn't the God of the Bible so I'm not worried one bit.

The God of the bible never promises to ''rapture''us out b4 the tribulation,if you reject the god that will not rapture you b4 the tribulation then you have indeed rejected the one true God of the bible.

You guys are impossible you are fighting over something that is not of a salvation point. Just because one believes he/she will or will not be raptured deoesn't mean he or she is not saved. We are saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, not of works lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8,9

God is the one who saves through His beloved Son. We are all meant to be brothers and sisters in Christ but all I see is a pack of dogs fighting over a bone that has no goodness left in it.

Why don't we forget about what we have been taught by man and just dive into God's word and let Him show us the truth.

Satan has placed many roads out there to take us away from the truth let us find the right road and work back to the truth of God, and we can only do that by studying His word and asking Him what He is trying to tell us. Throw away the other books and seek God first then all other things will fall into place.

God is a God of peace not confusion and He says love one another not stab each other and kick each other into submission. We all have our own opinions but do they truely match what the word of God is telling us if not we need to check it.

There is only one way and that is God's way

[Guest shiloh357]

You guys are impossible you are fighting over something that is not of a salvation point

99% of things debated here at Worthy are not salvation issues. That is why there is room for debate and argument.

God is the one who saves through His beloved Son. We are all meant to be brothers and sisters in Christ but all I see is a pack of dogs fighting over a bone that has no goodness left in it.

If you don't like the discussion, you are free to leave the thread. You are under no obligation continue reading what is posted here.

Why don't we forget about what we have been taught by man and just dive into God's word and let Him show us the truth.

God teaches through men. He anoints men to teach His Word so it is pretty much impossible to throw that out. Everyone has differences of opinion and what you see as THE truth in a given passage, I may not. That is why we hash things out.

[Isa]

I respectfully disagree Toni --

Fine, just so you know, you won't be hurting my feelings any as I have God's Word to back me up on this issue, which is "the rapture" by the way.

After His resurrection and just before His ascension, His disciples asked Him about the timing of the events regarding the establishment of the Kingdom. His response to them was that it was not for them to know the times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. I find His statement to be very much at odds with your position that the (future) timing of the resurrection, in terms of how many days or months before or after a specific milestone immediately prior to His return, is a big deal to God and very significant.

I am very well aware of what Jesus told his disciples in the book of Acts; however, that in no way takes away any relevant scripture pertaining to the Resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the catching away of the saints at the last day, according to the Words of Jesus in John's Gospel, four times.

I trust you read my entire post. I was not proposing that the resurrection had already occurred. Nor did I allow for the possibility of anything other than a premillennial resurrection. But seriously, whether it occurrs before the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, at the beginning, at the middle, at the end, or somewhere between the middle and the end (my personal belief) shouldn't be a divisive point. If we are having that discussion, then we - by definition - agree on 99 percent of the other stuff!!!

Actually, I did not read your entire post, because I was more concerned about your lackadisical attitude concerning the timing of the Resurrection, and that is what I am addressing.

What does it really matter exactly when that resurrection occurs inside the course of just a few years?

and I believe it is compelling that you and others here realize it is no insignificant matter, no matter how you and others try to justify it. Personally, I disagree with you in the beforementioned. No one here can back up a pre-tribulation rapture with scripture, yet you seem to imply that "we" agree 99 % on the other stuff. I do not put my trust and agreement in anyone who touts an unbiblical doctrine, no matter how popular it may be to some. I myself choose to check out everything that is said here with the Word of God and I do not choose to listen to others and blindly agree in what they say.

Your analogy to Israel missing the time of their visitation is way off. We don't have to be looking for the resurrection to partake in it. We don't even have to know that there *is* a resurrection, much less when it occurs, to partake in it.

The Words of Jesus are good enough for me. Yes we do have to know there is a Resurrection of the righteous dead in Christ, at least Jesus thought is was very, very important. He came to give eternal life to all those who believe in him. Duh?! And most certainly, as He said, the Resurrection of the righteous dead is not until the last day, except to those who disregard His Words and think they are gunna be "outa here" seven years prior.

Yet there *are* so many other things of greater importance - the weightier matters...

Whenever false doctrine is being promoted, it is up to every follower of Christ who is compelled to do so to search the scriptures and point out the error. If this is not done, then that makes you just as guilty.

I think this thread should be closed down for it is not a very good witness to those who come into this forum seeking the truth when you have christian fighting over the word as they are.

If I was a moderator here I would have shut it down long ago.

No matter what some one else says you ignore the fact just to fight among yourselves. It doesn't matter what you think what matters is what God says and God says love one another and respect one another and correct one another in love, I don't see any of that happening here.

[AnotherTraveler]

Maybe all the threads where people disagree should be closed down. What a wonderful witness that would be.

If personal attacks are not occurring, then spirited discussion from opposite points of view healthy, and a good witness of the ability of God's people to disagree without being disagreeable.

[kari21]

It seems to me that you think you will be qualified for the reward at the judgment seat of Christ also.

Darn tootin'

My reward will be based on my Christian service. The same as yours, or any other believers.

Yes, when you are saved initally, you are saved 100%. But once again you are not 100% mature, nor 100% like Christ. Grow...this is all that we should be concered about.

If we are 100% saved at conversion, then why throw a hissy? Like Shiloh said, a brand new Christian is just as saved as one who was a Christian their whole life. And another good point he made was we will NEVER be 100% Christlike this side of heaven.

[jehovah Nissi]

Yes, when you are saved initally, you are saved 100%. But once again you are not 100% mature, nor 100% like Christ. Grow...this is all that we should be concered about.

If we are 100% saved at conversion, then why throw a hissy? Like Shiloh said, a brand new Christian is just as saved as one who was a Christian their whole life. And another good point he made was we will NEVER be 100% Christlike this side of heaven.

I see it this way...1/3 of us is 100% perfect and 100% like Jesus which is our spirit man (2 Corinthians 5:17 and 21)...1/3 of us needs transformation by renewing our mind by the word of God (Romans 12:2) which is your soulish realm...and 1/3 of us needs to be presented a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1) which is our body, and I might add that it should be sacrificed daily...putting the flesh under so to speak.

[Isa]

I think this thread should be closed down for it is not a very good witness to those who come into this forum seeking the truth

Or is it you might believe that they will find truth and stop believe in the pretrib myth?

Not accusing, just asking.

No. I believe in the pre trib but I am not will to take anyone down because they believe different, that is there belief of what the Lord is saying to them. I think the Lord's heart would be broken to see His saints fighting over this, is it worth it.

We are to show love to one another not to use our mouths to hurt God tell's us to have control of our tongues. Even though it is not our tongues doing the talking, I think we need to control that which is used to steer the mind and writing of the words. We need a little selfcontrol.

Let go of self and let God control

Edited November 26, 2007 by Isa