Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

[Sherman]

Mt.19.8-9 Interpreted

Please bear with me as I briefly review the major cultural, literary, and authorial points of the context that bear upon correctly translating this passage.

1. The confrontation with the Pharisees happened in Herod

[Guest Greg Davies]

Thank you Sherman for taking the time to expain all of this. Seriously, it was instructive.

Forgive me for being somewhat dense, impatient, and now self-centered. I have to ask you how you think this applies to my situation.

Briefly, because of a series of very difficult hardships not directly related to our marraige, my wife lost her faith, left our church, and divorced me. I never "cheated" on her and she has never "cheated" on me before or since the divorce. We both remain single.

Now I've just read what you've presented here and I'm not seeing how this applies to me. Can you explain how this understanding applies to me one way or the other?

Thanks, Greg.

[Axxman]

I am divorced. My wife left me for another man. I did everything I could think of to save my marriage. I even refused to sign divorce papers. My divorce still haunts me to this day. It is the "mark of shame" on my life. I HATE being that statistic!

I am remarried. God has blessed me with a beautiful wife, who in turn provided me with four great kids. I love them with everything I have within me. Yet my divorce still haunts me.

Hi Axxman,

For our benefit and the benefit of the Church what things could the church have done to make your transition better? Obviously you had no choice there was no sin on your part, it was certainly a sad thing, but not a sinful thing for you. Why do you think you are haunted by something that was out of your control?

The thing is God has blessed you with a wife and children, something that could not have happened without the divorce.

I was not flawless. It takes two. I wasn't a very good spiritual leader, nor a very attentive husband. I carry those failings in my heart. God can forgive me, and I appreciate His grace...but the fact is that I made certain vows before God to care for that girl for the rest of her life and I failed in those vows before God and man. If I was the husband to her that I am now to my current wife...I believe I wouldn't be divorced.

What the church could have done? The transistion? Sorry..but the church is a monumental failure on the subject of divorce (and families in general) as this thread perfectly proves. After my divorce...turns out that amongst ALL of our friends...I was the only one surprised by it. Everyone saw the problems. Everyone saw her hanging out with other guys too often. She even hit on a couple of my friends. It was nice to find out after the fact. The church should stop worrying about the divorce transistion and speak up before there needs to be a transistion. More often than not..the church isn't a help, its an accomplice. However, I still accept full responsibility. If I learned ANYTHING during that time it was that you shouldn't rely on the church for ANYTHING. If I had been the husband I was supposed to be, I probably would have noticed the same things they did...or more likely...those problems wouldn't have existed at all.

God has blessed me GREATLY. Beyond what I deserve. It sickens me that it "could not have happened without the divorce."

[Sherman]

Thank you Sherman for taking the time to expain all of this. Seriously, it was instructive.

Forgive me for being somewhat dense, impatient, and now self-centered. I have to ask you how you think this applies to my situation.

Briefly, because of a series of very difficult hardships not directly related to our marraige, my wife lost her faith, left our church, and divorced me. I never "cheated" on her and she has never "cheated" on me before or since the divorce. We both remain single.

Now I've just read what you've presented here and I'm not seeing how this applies to me. Can you explain how this understanding applies to me one way or the other?

Thanks, Greg.

You're welcome Greg. And I don't think you or anyone else on this board are dense, impatient, much-less self-centered. When we've been taught to understand a passage a certain way all of our lives, and everything we've read or studied seems to reinforce it, it takes a lot to rethink such issues.

Jesus was dealing with a couple of specific problems. And He spoke prophetically concerning the motives of the heart behind divorce. The problem was bad motives for divorce, not remarriage. Frankly, regardless of who was at fault in your previous marriage, you are free to marry another woman if you chose to. Or if you believe there is hope for your marriage to be restored, and that is your desire, then you are encouraged to continue to pray and wait.

Jesus was not trying to legislate acceptable or non-acceptable reasons for divorce; He was challenging the negative attitudes and philosophies of the Pharisees, encouraging people to reach for the Divine Ideal of marriage, and He underscored the reason civil law allowed divorce - to mitigate the oppression of women.

So when Paul says that if divorce's remarry, they do not sin, he completely agreed with what Jesus said.

But if you have sacrificed much of your life to the traditional doctrine of MDR, it could possibly to take some serious restudying to really shake off those shackles. I encourage you to study this further outside this thread. If interested I can give you some more references.

Blessings,

Sherman

[irishcowboy]

we are also told, that if one person is a believer, and the other is not, that if the non-believer is willing ot live with in the bounds of God, that they can stay, if not, they can depart, free from the bonds of marriage.....

God gave us instructions on how to treat others, and that would include spouses.... WE ARE NOT TO ABUSE THEM WHAT SO EVER, WIFE, HUSBAND, SLAVE/SERVANT, EVEN ANIMALS ARE NOT TO BE MISTREATED.......

God said.......

IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP (not maybe, not some not pick and choose) MY COMMANDMENTS.....

if one person loves some one, they will not mistreat them,they will actually do things to try and please them, raise them up at any cost.......

If I love my wife, i will treat her with the utmost respect, and do anything I can that will please her...... not tear her down....

and she does things that please me........

beating ones spouse, is not love, that is pure bitterness, which is just short of hatred.... hatred for ones own self, and they take that hatred out on others....

being submissive is not being a slave.... it is not being substandard, it is not being personal property to some one else.....

it a case where the husband is physically abusing the wife or children, it is TIME TO RUN....... GET OUT.......

the husband has no concern about them.......

The Bible does not tell us to stay in a volitile relationshp, one where a person life is at stake......

personally, if a wife, with children stay in a physically abusive house of a person, they could be held for endangering the welfare of a child..... strong words>>>>> not different then a bully being held responsible for his actions when he hits some one charged with ASSUALT AND BATTERY......... but that is not done, the victims tend to get the raw end of the deal again and again......

I SAY THIS..... FOR YOUR OWN WELL BEING, IF YOU ARE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP, GET OUT..... GET TO A SAFE HOUSE, GET AWAY FROM THE DANGER, GET TO A PLACE WHERE YOU AND THE CHILDREN ARE SAFE...... AND GET SOME ASSISTANCE FROM THE AUTHORITIES........

mike

[Sherman]

I was not flawless. It takes two. I wasn't a very good spiritual leader, nor a very attentive husband. I carry those failings in my heart. God can forgive me, and I appreciate His grace...but the fact is that I made certain vows before God to care for that girl for the rest of her life and I failed in those vows before God and man. If I was the husband to her that I am now to my current wife...I believe I wouldn't be divorced.

What the church could have done? The transistion? Sorry..but the church is a monumental failure on the subject of divorce (and families in general) as this thread perfectly proves. After my divorce...turns out that amongst ALL of our friends...I was the only one surprised by it. Everyone saw the problems. Everyone saw her hanging out with other guys too often. She even hit on a couple of my friends. It was nice to find out after the fact. The church should stop worrying about the divorce transistion and speak up before there needs to be a transistion. More often than not..the church isn't a help, its an accomplice. However, I still accept full responsibility. If I learned ANYTHING during that time it was that you shouldn't rely on the church for ANYTHING. If I had been the husband I was supposed to be, I probably would have noticed the same things they did...or more likely...those problems wouldn't have existed at all.

God has blessed me GREATLY. Beyond what I deserve. It sickens me that it "could not have happened without the divorce."

Axxman, as you know, there is complete forgiveness in the Lord. Another thing, you can only take responsibility for your actions. Your ex-wife is responsible before God for hers. And your friends and the members of your church that could have helped are responsible for theirs. Sadly, due to the traditional doctrine, in many fellowships, divorce is almost considered an unforgivable sin, as you know. You're correct in that most churches fail to help people have healthy lasting marriages. It's tragic. I believe this is due in part to the errant doctrine of divorce. In fact, I believe that the traditional doctrine of MDR is like a spider's web made up of multiple interconnect misinterpretations of scripture, errant concepts, and irrational principles.

For example, one of the foundational elements of the traditional doctrine is that Marriage is Indissoluble, unbreakable. However, the truth is that marriage is very breakable. Jesus said, "What God has joined together, let not man put assunder." This implies that it is possible for man to break apart even what God has joined together, though he shouldn't. And frankly, which do you treat with more care, a fragile priceless China vase or an unbreakable cast-iron pot? The vase of course! In the same way, we should recognize that our marriages, even/especially Christian marriages are breakable. We need to protect eachother's marriages, watch out for eachother, be accountable to eachother, and cover eachother in prayer. Sadly, this doesn't happen in many, if not most, fellowships.

I'm glad that you're happy in your 2nd marriage, and I pray that you establish a lot more heaven on earth in and through your family!

[Scarletprayers]

The church "from what I have seen" does and awful job helping those going through divorce. I haven't read all of your thread Sherman, but I plan on doing so, with my Bible in hand. I don't know about the divorce/remarriage issue having been raised in a church that takes the view you are talking against. But, that doesn't excuse them for their treatment of their treatment of those going through it. I am still humiliated to this day by the way I was treated by the elders/preacher of the church where my children and I had attended for years, and where my husband refused to step foot..................hummm wonder if thats why I no longer attend.

[Sherman]

The church "from what I have seen" does and awful job helping those going through divorce. I haven't read all of your thread Sherman, but I plan on doing so, with my Bible in hand. I don't know about the divorce/remarriage issue having been raised in a church that takes the view you are talking against. But, that doesn't excuse them for their treatment of their treatment of those going through it. I am still humiliated to this day by the way I was treated by the elders/preacher of the church where my children and I had attended for years, and where my husband refused to step foot..................hummm wonder if thats why I no longer attend.

Scarletprayers, I'm very sorry for the pain you and your children suffered in your fellowship of believers. Such is far to common in the Church. They likely believed that they were doing what was best for you and your family - very sad. I pray that you and your children will be healed, drawn close to Him by His Spirit, and that you will find a fellowship that will be a great blessing to you and yours.

Sincerely,

Sherman

[Sherman]

Mt.5.31-32, the Sermon on the Mount

The divorce passage in Matthew 5:31-32 is part of the

[Sherman]

Have you ever wondered why Jesus' divorce passages (as understood traditionally) seem to have a negative slant toward women? I mean, even though the man puts away the wife, she is the one who commits adultery and the man that marries her commits adultery. And it is the woman who is separated that is told to remain unmarried, not the man that put her away.

This seems especially strange when one recognizes that Polygamy was still practiced in 1st century Judaism. So a man that had multiple wives could put away (not giving her a bill of divorce) one of his wives and she had to remain unmarried, but he could keep his other wives and even marry another wife if he chose to. This was the civil law of the day.

When one recognizes the culture in which Jesus spoke, (polygamy was practiced, and women were almost powerless and at the full mercy of their husbands) it's ludicrous to think that his short little statements were meant to bring any major changes in civil law. Jesus spoke prophetically; He did not speak as a civil legislator. Of course, His teachings and Spirit have permeated cultures like salt and have brought radical changes, but Jesus did not try to change the social/civil order of Israel in His earthly ministry.

Frankly, the reason Jesus' divorce passages as understood traditionally seem to slant negative toward women, is because they are completely misuderstood traditionally. Jesus was opposing the oppressive teachings of the Pharisees. He encouraged men to treat their wives with respect and honor. But if a man did decide to kick out his wife, he should at least give her the proper Divorce Papers and pay her the dowry so that the she could legally marry another man and get on with her life. It was evil, satanic to leave a wife in an adulterated state, having no support, poverty stricken, often relegated to prostitution, or at "best" just living with one other man. This was an evil social problem of the ancient near-east that God intended to stop by inspiring Moses to enact legislatively the bill of divorce. Sadly, the Pharisees did not pick up on the purpose or Spirit behind the bill of divorce, and instead of mitigating the oppression of women, lessened it's effect by not enforcing it and allowing men to continue to treat women with such evil!

So if one understands Jesus' words in the light of their cultural context, they make sense and Jesus is understood as a great liberator; and the Law of Moses is understood as a great blessing to the people, not a curse to be delivered from. Ultimately, the Law can be summed up in Love God and Love your neighbor, why? Because the Spirit and purpose behind each aspect of the Law, it's foundation, was and is Love!