Oh Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree

[AndrewA]

Shalom Andrew,

WHAAAAAT? What a nasty post and wrong on every level.

What are you talking about?

First off, Messianic Jews are Jewish Believers in the Messiah.

And not ALL Messianic Jews believe the same things about everything. DO all Christians believe the same things? No way.

And yes, many Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas because it's not a Gentile thing it's a JESUS thing.

And, for the record, a Gentile cannot "convert" and become a Messianic Jew. One is either a Jew or a Gentile and either one can become Believers in Messiah, but they cannot become each other.

What I am saying is that a number of Christians are so anti Christmas and Easter to point that we are supposed to not participate in anything as it would be involving Pagan holidays. These people might condsider becoming a Jew as they can then participate in true God given feasts and festivals and can ignore Christmas with a clear mind as there is no obligation to observe Christmas.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Andrew,

WHAAAAAT? What a nasty post and wrong on every level.

What are you talking about?

First off, Messianic Jews are Jewish Believers in the Messiah.

And not ALL Messianic Jews believe the same things about everything. DO all Christians believe the same things? No way.

And yes, many Messianic Jews celebrate Christmas because it's not a Gentile thing it's a JESUS thing.

And, for the record, a Gentile cannot "convert" and become a Messianic Jew. One is either a Jew or a Gentile and either one can become Believers in Messiah, but they cannot become each other.

What I am saying is that a number of Christians are so anti Christmas and Easter to point that we are supposed to not participate in anything as it would be involving Pagan holidays. These people might condsider becoming a Jew as they can then participate in true God given feasts and festivals and can ignore Christmas with a clear mind as there is no obligation to observe Christmas.

Shalom Andrew,

Sorry, that is not a Scriptural, or edifying response from a Christian. You don't Scripturally tell a Believer to leave the faith just because you don't like their beliefs.

And, as I have shown you, your assumption that Messianic Jews do not celebrate Christmas is dead wrong.

[Hypathia]

For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. "

That sure sounds like they're cutting down a tree with an ax, nailing it to something to hold it steady then decorating it.

On the one hand people say, "follow the bible"..."do what the bible says".....except when it inteferes with customs and traditions people like that are forbidden by the bible.....then it's time for the "spin doctors" to make it a-okay. Are people really so stupid or just gullible that they accept the excuses. Why not just be honest and say, "yeah, the bible says not to do it" but I like to have a holiday tree and by golly I'm going to put one up in spite of the bible. Pick and choose, pick and choose.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Hypathia,

This is from the OP. It will explain why this verse does NOT mean a Christmas tree.

However, here is what the same verse is translated to in the NIV:

"Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says: Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them.

For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. "

This scripture is not talking about "decking" a tree with gold and silver. It is talking about decking a piece of chisled wood from the tree with gold and silver....a wooden idol in other words. This scripture is addressing idolatry and not the Christmas tree, which wasn't a custom until much much later in time by the German Hessiens and therefore could not have been addressed by scripture as a pagan custom.

I've even took a look at the original hebrew to determine for myself which translation is more accurate in our modern English and I have to side with the NIV translation on this one.

This is why I encourage people to use multiple translations in their research. Our language has simply transformed too much over time to rely on a single translation.

[Guest Biblicist]

NIV 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;

they cut a tree out of the forest,

and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold;

they fasten it with hammer and nails

so it will not totter.

NASB 3 For the customs of the peoples are delusion;

Because it is wood cut from the forest,

The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.

4 "They decorate it with silver and with gold;

They fasten it with nails and with hammers

So that it will not totter.

NLT 3 Their ways are futile and foolish.

They cut down a tree, and a craftsman carves an idol.

4 They decorate it with gold and silver

and then fasten it securely with hammer and nails

so it won't fall over.

[Hypathia]

That's not what the verses say vickilynn. They're pretty specific. What he's attempted to do is make it okay.

I prefer the more honest approach. I have my "heathen tree" up and decked out with ornaments and beautiful lights because I like it, but I'm not gonna try and whitewash the bible in the process or rewrite ancient history. I'll celebrate the holiday as a secular holiday, a human holiday, just for having fun.

BTW - Many cultures celebrated the winter solstice which occurs on the 21st. The Romans adopted many elements of those various traditions and called it Saturalia which lasted the entire week culminating with the birthday of the Persian Sun God Mithras on the 25th. (See Zoroastrianism).....that's why the 25th was adopted by the early church for the birthday of Jesus. They didn't know when Jesus was born (which is odd in and of itself) and the pagans refused to give up their big annual celebration so the church basically "stole" it from the pagans and changed to name to "Christ's mass" when they were unable to squash it. The Puritans banned it in their colonies but like the early church they had no lasting success because it's just too much fun and who wants to watch everyone else having fun when you're not having any.

[Hypathia]

Even if they are talking about shaping an idol out of wood, the holiday and it's trappings are still pagan and heathen and the bible warns against adopting those ways.

But, we like it, it's fun, I just prefer not to try an assign a "religious context" to it which, in my mind, isn't an honest thing to do.

[Guest Biblicist]

BTW - Many cultures celebrated the winter solstice which occurs on the 21st. The Romans adopted many elements of those various traditions and called it Saturalia which lasted the entire week culminating with the birthday of the Persian Sun God Mithras on the 25th. (See Zoroastrianism).....that's why the 25th was adopted by the early church for the birthday of Jesus. They didn't know when Jesus was born (which is odd in and of itself) and the pagans refused to give up their big annual celebration so the church basically "stole" it from the pagans and changed to name to "Christ's mass" when they were unable to squash it. The Puritans banned it in their colonies but like the early church they had no lasting success because it's just too much fun and who wants to watch everyone else having fun when you're not having any.

I think you missed my earlier post.

I decided to re-study the whole issue of Christmas. You see, I see it as a pagan holiday and would like nothing more than to do away with it in my personal life.

Not to derail your thread, but this statement struck me.

Actually, vrsprock, it is not a pagan holiday. People were celebrating Christ's birth several centurarys before the Pagans tried to reclaim the day as their own. As early as 98 A.D. December 25th was not recognized as the celebration of the Pagan Sun God untill 274 A.D. And that was an attempt to undo the effect of Christ on culture. Isn't that what Christianity is supposed to do. Be salt and light to the culture changing it?

My pastor just did a lesson on this Sunday, in reference to whether or not it is correct, according to the Regulative Principal, to celebrate Christ's birth.

The date, not the celebration is pagan. If you read the account of Christ's birth, there was plenty of celebrating going on, by the Angels, the shepherds and the wise men. There is no reason we should not celebrate the coming of our Saviour.

While we are given no command to celebrate Christ's birth, we are given no command to the contrary either. There are 42 prophesies reguarding Christ. His birth was the corination of those. Without his birth there would have been no life, there would have been no ministry, there would have been no death or resurrection, there would be no second coming. What better reason to celebrate!

Back to your topic. I see no reason not to have a tree, it could mean life to Christians. The tree brought us life. As long as one does not "worship" it there is nothing wrong with it.

[Vickilynn]

That's not what the verses say vickilynn. They're pretty specific. What he's attempted to do is make it okay.

Shalom Hypathia,

Excuse me? Please read Biblicist's post with the exact Scriptures. That in no way resembles a Christmas tree except they are both trees! The point of these verses is making an IDOL. No one is making an idol of a Christmas tree.

I prefer the more honest approach.

I prefer a more Scriptural approach. We celebrate the rejoice in the INCARNATION of the Messiah and we love having a Christmas tree. There is nothing Scripturally wrong with it and it is an evergreen, symbolizing Messiah giving us eternal life.

I have my "heathen tree" up and decked out with ornaments and beautiful lights because I like it, but I'm not gonna try and whitewash the bible in the process or rewrite ancient history. I'll celebrate the holiday as a secular holiday, a human holiday, just for having fun.

What a hoot. You can call it what you want, you can celebrate or not celebrate Christmas in any fashion you choose, but you are wrong to accuse people of not being honest, re-writing history, white-washing and all the other accusatory words you use.

Here's one: GRACE.

BTW, the celebration of the incarnation and birth of the Messiah has nothing to do with anything other than Jesus unless you choose to worship something other than Jesus. Think about it.

[Vickilynn]

Even if they are talking about shaping an idol out of wood, the holiday and it's trappings are still pagan and heathen and the bible warns against adopting those ways.

Shalom Hypathia,

That is just out and out not true. There is nothing pagan about worshiping the Messiah. The Bible says nothing about not glorifying Messiah at Christmas.