What do you think?

[Ovedya]

In some cases I believe that a person's sin is to such a degree that death can only be the most reasonable punishment. So my answer is, most certainly, yes.

[Tehilah Ba'Aretz]

I would make a couple of observations.

One is that there are not many who are acting in the role of the OT characters. That is, we have prophets who do not proclaim God's word; We have Judges who do not enforce justice or God's clearly defined will; We have leaders who embrace the goals and dreams of the world while trying to make us believe they are chosen anointed and appointed by God.

Another reason is that the world refuses to recognize the real acts of God when they are visible. I have seen rockets that failed to destroy their targets even though they score a direct hit. I have seen an evil man struck down. I have heard the eye witness testimony of soldiers who were saved by God.

God is active in our world! Nothing has changed other than the fullness of the revelation. Our world tends to try to explain God in scientific terms and tends to ignore results that don't fit the science. The numbers are statistically small and even when counted can be ignored. But if you think God is not active, you might as well quit trying to do righteousness.

[Trusting Jesus]

God is active today and I love hearing about His miracles.

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Nathele

[Hypathia]

Pharaoh was going to do what he did - he wasn't forced to do it by God. In fact, if Pharaoh had listened to God there would not have been any of the problems. So it was Pharaoh who made his choice and had to accept the consequences. So do we today. We can follow God's will and be obedient, or we must accept the consequences.

Exodus 4:

21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them."

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 9:11-23

11: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12: she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."

13: As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

15: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16: So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

17: For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."

18: So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

19: You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20: But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"

21: Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

22: What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,

23: in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

Ephesians 1:4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

2 Thess 2:11-12 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12: so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Tim 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago,

Jude 1:4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

The Bible says it's all really God's will after all; both good and bad..... for the purpose of glorifying Him.

[damo1]

I was pondering on a question that's actually been on my mind for awhile now...

As we read about God in the O.T. we see that God, a lot of the time, gave judement/ punishment right then in there.

My question is...why do you think God does not strike people down today as he did in O.T. times.

P.S. - there is no hidden agenda with my question...I am not asking this to pull someone into a debate...this is a question I honestly don't know the answer to and I thought some of you Bible scholars could assist me.

Thanks, and God bless.

damo1

To SD Ain FLA

the way i see what you are saying is this if god wear to do this how many of us would be hear today think of the amount of times a bad word has been said in the situations we find our selves in and if god wear to act and you saw some one you knew who deserved to be struck down how would you explaine this to his family or those that new him ?

sometimes i wish god would act like he did when king david and joshua and moses and joseph and daniel and many of the old prophets wear alive i feel for the people in dufor and suddan and in other parts of the world wear evil men are comitting genocide or murder its like satan has hold of these evil men and inocent people are suffering and no one seems to care

i saw a program on hot docs on tuesday night on dufor and what i saw shocked me it also made me cry with the amount of pictures that this un peace keeper took yet this man could not do a thing to prottect the people his orders wear given to him and he had to abide by these orders even though he was a captain him self and trained to kill he had to abide by what the un peace keeping forces hold on to all he could do is jot down information on the reports and take photos he would know wear these rebels would be attacking a village and nothing could be done to prottect the people he saw kids skulls crushed in dead bodies sprawn all over the ground viallages burnt to the ground babies chopped to death had heard storys of women and young girls being raped and this right in front of their husbands just to say to the people no one cares no one will prottect you he also saw writtings on the buildings saying your goverment and soldiers are to weak to confront us we are more stronger and they are weak

this is what got me thinking we know of these things happening we hear this on tv or read about this in the news paper but do we do anything our selves to bring this to the attention of our goverments or elected mps

i then looked at what god said to noah after the floods

Genesis 9 new spirit filled life bible

12 then god said this is the sign of the covenant which i make between me and you and every living creature

that is with you for perpetual generations

13 i set my rainbow in the cloud and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between me and the earth

14 it shall be when i bring a cloud over the earth that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud

15 and i will remember covenant which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh

the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh

16 the rainbow shall be in the cloud and i wil look on it to remember the everlasting covenant

between god and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth

17 and god said to noah this is the sign of the covenant which i have established between me and

all flesh that is on the earth

this is wear i was led by the holy spirit and as i read this a peace came over my heart its as if god was saying even though you see all the destruction around you by mans hands and all the evil that is being done by mans own hands i will never strike like i did with the floods mans destiny is in his own hands even though i want these men to turn to me and stop all this evil their destiny is in their own hands

yet these people that are doing this wil face god him self on judgment day when he does decide to judge the whole world and will not escape they wil be dealt with harshly by god and will suffer in the lake of fire that is talked about in revelations 20 as the lake of fire is reserved for those who take on the mark of the beast and for those who reject those that god sends to preach the good news and the ones who reject what is preached to them in the last days they also wil be thrown in the lake of fire with the rest of satans followers this is what i feel will happen to the ones who have evil intentions

even my partner who lives in the philippines does not say i wish you would strike these muslims dead she just puts her trust in the lord and prays for their salvation as many inocent filapino people have been killed by these rebels who are hidding in the deep parts of the forests with in the philippines my partner goes by this verse in matthew

matthew 5 new spirit filled life bible love your enemies

43 you have heard that it was said you shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy

44 but i say to you love your enemies bless those who curse you do good to those who hate you

and pray for those who spitfully use you and persecute you

45 that you may be sons of your father in heaven for he makes his sun rise on the evil

and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust

this has also been placed on my heart as i too wil be living in a country that has sufferd and i wil be running into these rebbels yet wear i at one stage thought on this i had to repent of this and ask jesus to forgive me

i wil though prottect not just me but my family since i was lead to that verse in genesis yet god has prottected those that are his many reports have been written down wear evil men have seen angels standing next to gods people also their are reports written down of wear evil men could not pull the triger on their guns and their have been reports wear some have fallen on their faces trembling in fear

so if we trust god and if we belive with all our heart and all our souls he will not let us down or alow harm to come towards us

this is how i see this for my self so i hope i do not get jumped on by what i have shared from the heart i am human just like any one else even to what was going on in cosavo as my brother vladko is a croation soldier and a snipper and i was worried for him i use to wish that god would kill the serbians that wear doing this horrific thing to the people of yougoslavia this is how much hatred i had towards the serbians but god took that hatred out of me as i am croation and he has helped me love those i use to hate at one stage and i can honestly tell you it has worked i can sit down and have a coffe with a fellow serbian and shake his hands or embrace my brother or sister with out having hate for them

it did not happen straight away but bit by bit it happend and i dont let things bother me as their are serbs living hear in australia who act as pig headed as they did at home in my home land and all i do is put the hand out in love instead of wanting to bash their heads into the ground and when i ask the holy spirit to help me he does the hatred is honestly gone and i thank jesus for this

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[kari21]

Pharaoh was going to do what he did - he wasn't forced to do it by God. In fact, if Pharaoh had listened to God there would not have been any of the problems. So it was Pharaoh who made his choice and had to accept the consequences. So do we today. We can follow God's will and be obedient, or we must accept the consequences.

Exodus 4:

21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and turn for me to heal them."

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 9:11-23

11: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12: she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."

13: As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

15: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16: So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

17: For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."

18: So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

19: You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20: But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"

21: Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

22: What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,

23: in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

Ephesians 1:4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

2 Thess 2:11-12 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12: so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Tim 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago,

Jude 1:4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

The Bible says it's all really God's will after all; both good and bad..... for the purpose of glorifying Him.

Hypathia,

Those that God allows to come to ruin are those God knows will never repent. So he simply turns them over to their sinful natures and allows the wrath reserved for them to be manifest.

"Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." (Romans 1:28)

[Guest shiloh357]

Romans 9:11-23

11: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12: she was told, "The elder will serve the younger."

13: As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

15: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16: So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

17: For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."

18: So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

19: You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20: But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"

21: Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

22: What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,

23: in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

God hardened Pharoah's heart, but it was through Pharoah's disposition toward God and the choices that he made, that make Pharoah and not God, responsible for that hardening. By way of analogy, if you take a block of wax and a block of clay and put them out in the hot August sun, what will happen? The clay will harden but the wax will melt. They are both exposed to the same heat, but is the the disposition of each that determines how the heat of the sun affects them.

The mercy spoken of in the above passage from Romans 9 is the mercy God gives the unrepentant before He gives them over to their sin. It is a different type of mercy than what God offers to the vessels of mercy mentioned later in v. 23. That is verse is talking about salvation. Who are the vessels of mercy? To whom is the gift of salvation available. Paul sheds more light on this in Roman 11:32 which is still following the same line of thought that Paul began in chapter 9. Paul says:

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom. 11:32

[kari21]

God hardened Pharoah's heart, but it was through Pharoah's disposition toward God and the choices that he made, that make Pharoah and not God, responsible for that hardening. By way of analogy, if you take a block of wax and a block of clay and put them out in the hot August sun, what will happen? The clay will harden but the wax will melt. They are both exposed to the same heat, but is the the disposition of each that determines how the heat of the sun affects them.

That rocked! I gotta remember that one!

[Hypathia]

It seems to me that you are all adding to what the scriptures actually say in order to make youselves feel comfortable. We're not suppose to add to or take away or so I've been taught.

The scriptures clearly say that God preordained everything and you can't blame satan because satan is God's creatioin too; plus, even in the bible genocide was done at the orders of God. Satan only kills in the book of Job and even then he can't do it without asking God first.

People say you can't know the mind of God; people say the Bible is God's word yet the same people can't accept that word when it conflicts with personal human emotions and mankind's sense of right and wrong. We try to make God's mind fit our own minds.

[Trusting Jesus]

The Bible is one book from start to finish. When you study you need to take things in context, find the history behind happenings, and even at times know the original language and the subtle meanings to the words. I like the way Shiloh357 explained it. This isn't reading "into" God's word, but understanding what is being said.

I can say to my daughter "You make me so mad". Now, if you take that at face value I sound as if I don't like her. But, if you study the history behind it and see that I have told her to clean her bedroom 10 times and she doesn't, you can understand my words. But, if you have a grasp of the subtlties of English you will understand that she doesn't make me mad, it's the way I react to the things she does. It's my choice to get mad.

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Nathele