Calvin vs. Arminius

[ArtistforChrist]

Kjn,

Lucifer was created prefect, God did not create, evil, only the potential for evil, He gave Him FREE WILL, to act or act otherwise, he wanted the angels to CHOOSE to love him, because without choice, love is rendered meaningless. Lucifer decieded he could be better than God, so sinned, so hell was created as a place of quartine Lucifer and his angels on the day of judgement. He gave Adam and Eve the same choice, follow me, or don't they choose to reject God and be there own gods, therefore, anyone on the day of judgement who stands on his own rightousness is justly condemned to Hell.

God could have let every single person go to hell without offering a solution and he still would have been Just. But GOD loved US, DIED for US, so ANYONE willing to bow the knee will be accepted and seen as Holy through the Shed blood of Christ.

My view on election is something like this: Every person has the choice to accept or reject this free gift of grace. God in his Sovernignty looks through the corridors of time so to speak, sees a person and what that person would do given the choice of Salvation. To those who accept this Gift, they are CHOSEN for salvation. Another way is this, the Holy Spirit reveals the Truth to someone and gives them the oppurtinity to accept or decline. Without free will to accept or reject, we would be nothing more than robots or chatty cathy dolls, pull the string we say "I LOVE YOU" God does not want that, we wants us to CHOOSE to love him.

God does not see us as "disposable", but what is he to do when someone willfully rejects God and says "I don't want to have anything to do with YOU!" If he drug that person to heaven against there will, heaven would be hell for that person and true believers would recieve a counterfiet heaven.

Annihaltion doesn't work either because he would be taking a peice of his creation, created in his image, whom he gave the choice of rejecting him, and putting them out of existance.

The Only solution for Sin that is not laid at the foot of the Cross is quartine in Hell. It may be sad, but it is that person's choice and God is simple honoring their choice to be separated from him.

God Bless,

ArtistforHim <><

[7cworldwide]

[sigh]

Read this: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/arti...rstandings.html

[ArtistforChrist]

7c,

God knowing the future does not mean it is pre-determined, God is all-knowing so he knows what we will do when offered a choice, It is like offering a child a cookie or brussel sproutes, you know what the child will pick, but that does not take away his or her choice in what they want. If a person is chosen and has no choice but to accept, that is not love, we are offered Salvation by God through the Holy Spirit, and we must decide to accept or reject, that is not a work, We can be given a gift by someone, something we did not deserve or work for, but if we lay it on a shelf and do nothing with it, it is no good to us, Salvation is the same way, it must be accepted to be usefull.

The two positions I posted are the ones I go back and forth with, Where God looks through time and knows what each person would do with a choice, and it still be our choices, or The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to an individual and than that person either accepts or denies salvation. No way is either works based, God does all the work.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist <><

[EricH]

7c,

God knowing the future does not mean it is pre-determined, God is all-knowing so he knows what we will do when offered a choice, It is like offering a child a cookie or brussel sproutes, you know what the child will pick, but that does not take away his or her choice in what they want. If a person is chosen and has no choice but to accept, that is not love, we are offered Salvation by God through the Holy Spirit, and we must decide to accept or reject, that is not a work, We can be given a gift by someone, something we did not deserve or work for, but if we lay it on a shelf and do nothing with it, it is no good to us, Salvation is the same way, it must be accepted to be usefull.

The two positions I posted are the ones I go back and forth with, Where God looks through time and knows what each person would do with a choice, and it still be our choices, or The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to an individual and than that person either accepts or denies salvation. No way is either works based, God does all the work.

God Bless,

ArtistforChrist <><

The problem is that the language of the bible is stronger. It not only says He knows. It says he "foreordains"

[7cworldwide]

7c,

God knowing the future does not mean it is pre-determined, God is all-knowing so he knows what we will do when offered a choice, It is like offering a child a cookie or brussel sproutes, you know what the child will pick, but that does not take away his or her choice in what they want.

This is a terrible analogy but I'll follow with you on it a bit. Why does the child choose the cookie over brussel sprouts? Because it's his nature to choose that which tastes better to him. Such is the case with natural man. The unregenerate man will always give way to the flesh and will never (because he CANNOT) do that which is pleasing to the perfect Lawgiver and Judge (see Romans 3). He MUST be given new life (regenerated, born again) in order to have the ability to truly repent and believe (see John 3).

If a person is chosen and has no choice but to accept, that is not love, we are offered Salvation by God through the Holy Spirit, and we must decide to accept or reject, that is not a work,

This is irrelevant because man is wholly unable to do so without God's grace manifested through the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit.

We can be given a gift by someone, something we did not deserve or work for, but if we lay it on a shelf and do nothing with it, it is no good to us,

What did Lazarus "do" in order to be raised from the dead? His resuscitation was a gift, indeed. But he was dead. He could do nothing but stink! Such is the case with the spiritually dead.

Salvation is the same way, it must be accepted to be usefull.

This statement tells me that you believe that God alone does not, moreover, cannot save. Can you show us some Scriptural support for such a belief? ...that is, of course, without confusing sanctification with regeneration, justification, adoption, etc.

The two positions I posted are the ones I go back and forth with, Where God looks through time and knows what each person would do with a choice, and it still be our choices, or The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to an individual and than that person either accepts or denies salvation. No way is either works based, God does all the work.

If "to choose" is a verb (and it is) and regeneration is contingent upon this action in order to occur then your argument is self-defeating. Decisional regeneration leaves room for boasting and is, therefore, a false teaching—a false Gospel.

Grace & Peace...

Edited October 14, 2007 by 7cworldwide

[ArtistforChrist]

7c,

I beleive the Holy Spirit reveals to us the truth and gives us the ability to choose, but we still must choose. Love is rendered meaningless if it is not from our Free Will Choice, we would just be pre-programed robots, and if that is all God wanted we would not have created Adam the free will to have the ability to sin in the first place.

Joshua 24:15

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

John 1:11,12

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

[EricH]

EricH,

I don't deny predestionation, only differ on the we are.

God Bless,

Artist.

Didn't quite catch what your meaning is here

[7cworldwide]

7c,

I beleive the Holy Spirit reveals to us the truth and gives us the ability to choose, but we still must choose. Love is rendered meaningless if it is not from our Free Will Choice, we would just be pre-programed robots,

Really? God has loved His elect (John 6:37) since before the foundation of the world (Rev. 17:8). We've looked at regeneration. Let's look now at adoption. Eph. 1:5 (ESV) says "he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will." What does an adopted baby "do" to become adopted? The child has no choice in the matter. But the child is nurtured and shown great love from the adoptive parents and what happens when the child matures? The child truly loves those parents who chose to adopt, love, and raise him up. Such is the case with our Sovereign Lord.

"We love because he first loved us."

[EricH]

What I find interesting about the poll question about our position about believing in Calvan's doctrine verses Arminius is that the overwhelming majority voted they believed 100 percent in Calvanism. I don't find many here at Worthy that teach Calvanism. There are only a handful, 7CWorldwide being one of them. In reality, it appears that most believe in partial Calvanism, so it makes me wonder if they really understand what he taught? I voted 100 percent Arminius, and don't believe any of the in between doctrines fit, for various reasons. 100 percent Calvanism does make sense, and answers a lot of the questions unanswered by the majority of OSAS believers.

Actually Arminians and Calvinists would give similar counsel to people on many issues. They would on differ on the mechanics of what is going on behind the scenes form God's perspective.

[Diolectic]

Has anyone ever wondered how God could take delite in making people come to Him against their wills, by this so called "regeneration". They are really nothing more than brainwashed. when they come to Him, it is only because they had no choice. When in reality they would realy prefer to continue hating Him. When the truth is to be told, they don