Calvin vs. Arminius

[Cerran]

Well I personally don't put myself completely in either bucket. I think both have good points but I personally feel Calvin has a little too deterministic view. I prefer the view that God gave us free will so that we have the option of finding and choosing him. It is my view that if he has already chosen who will be saved, that the coming of Jesus would be made meaningless as Jesus died for the sins of us all not just the ones "intended" to be saved.

Comments?

[Work in Progress]

I have a question for the 100% calvinists here, how do you account for the presence of evil (IE Satan) Certainly from what I read out of it is that Eve & Adam made their own choice to sin and that god did not make it for them.

if Man had no free will in Eden, then how did evil come into being is this world?

For the THOUSANDETH time, Calvinists DO NOT deny free will.

[keslc]

I have a question for the 100% calvinists here, how do you account for the presence of evil (IE Satan) Certainly from what I read out of it is that Eve & Adam made their own choice to sin and that god did not make it for them.

if Man had no free will in Eden, then how did evil come into being is this world?

For the THOUSANDETH time, Calvinists DO NOT deny free will.

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

Why is this? Sounds like a denial of free will to me.

[Work in Progress]

For the thousandeth and oneth time, Calvinists do not deny free will. To say that Calvinists believe that "man had no free will in the garden" is false and argument bait IMO. As much as many would like to portray it that way, Calvinists do not believe men are robots or puppets, acting according to God's script. What you quoted is absolutely true. HE IS IN BONDAGE TO EVIL AND CANNOT CHOOSE GOD. I think people can not separate "in the spiritual realm" from the worldly realm. In day to day working out of one's salvation, Calvanists believe the same as you do - that they have free will and a choice in their actions, their behaviors, their beliefs.

[Russell]

Well I'm afraid calvin has my vote. YHWH does it all. He gave me freewill but even then... it is according to His will ...how my life ...will transpire.

What would have happened to Saul (apostle Paul) if God didn't blind him? What would have happened to King Nebuchadnezzar if God didn't make him as an ox.

Blessings

[Shelby]

What would have happened to Saul (apostle Paul) if God didn't blind him? What would have happened to King Nebuchadnezzar if God didn't make him as an ox.

God would have made another way to help Saul (Paul) come to the conclusion. Because God gives us circumstances to help to Glorify himself deosn't mean that he made the choise to choose Paul and say someone else of that time. I find it abhorent that people would choose to think that God would choose who is going to heaven and who isn't. I ask again why Jesus? What about John 3:16? What about the whole new testament?

For the thousandeth and oneth time, Calvinists do not deny free will. To say that Calvinists believe that "man had no free will in the garden" is false and argument bait IMO. As much as many would like to portray it that way, Calvinists do not believe men are robots or puppets, acting according to God's script. What you quoted is absolutely true. HE IS IN BONDAGE TO EVIL AND CANNOT CHOOSE GOD. I think people can not separate "in the spiritual realm" from the worldly realm. In day to day working out of one's salvation, Calvanists believe the same as you do - that they have free will and a choice in their actions, their behaviors, their beliefs.

We aren't talking about free will in the garden, that is obvious, we are talking about now, today. Will you "choose" Christ or deny him? Do you believe you can make that choice? If God called you home right now, do you have assurance of heaven? Do you believe that you can live for God and choose him as your Lord and Savior, and know you will be in heaven if you die this minute? I do not believe that we can save ourselves, because God knows our heart, but if we are sincere when we ask Jesus into our heart and live for him and stay in his will, then God's faithfulness will prevail, and he will welcome us to eternity. But God knocks at the door, we must answer, he has called us to a holy life, it is our choice to accept his sacrifice or deny Him. JMO

[Russell]

  I find it abhorent that people would choose to think that God would choose who is going to heaven and who isn't. 

Than you would find these Scriptures abhorent as well.

Rom 9:18 "So He has mercy on whom He desires and hardens whom He desires'

Ephesians 1:4-5 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love he predestined us to adoption as sons thru Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Blessings

[Shelby]

You are incorrect. I believe you are taking them out of context.

I find God's Word Holy and any implication that I would think otherwise is taken as an offense. I am in no way naive to the scriptures and do not enter into this discussion lightly. I have been reading and praying about this subject and I feel confident that God has confirmed my understanding.

I would rather not re-state my remarks over once again, to see what I believe and know to be true, you can read my former posts and also Kelsc's posts.

[Guest mcm42]

I'm with you Russel, well done in understanding what's being said in Romans 9...

[Shelby]

Like I said, pick and pull all the scriptures you want to support your beliefs, but I feel confident that God will usurp all this petty scripture picking and let the message of his word speak first. How can some of you be so judgemental? Isn't this a forum, not a condemnation board.