Calvin vs. Arminius

[Diolectic]

For you to imply that David is only saying he was brought forth into a sinful world and not really referring to his own sinfulness is simply amazing.

I did not mean that he wasn't lamenting his own wicked ness, but I was telling you that you can not make a doctrine out of what he said. Does hyssop take our sin away? does it make us cleane?(Psa 51:7)

You really believe children are born without sin and are deemed innocent? Where is this magic age of accountability in the Bible of which you believe?

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Only God know the exact age for each child.

Do you also think the mentally ill are without sin because of their lack of understanding? How about the elderly? They must be sin free too since they aren't responsible?

Mently ill and the elderly are not the same, I will not get into that subject on this thread.

The Bible says all mankind is an object of God's wrath. There is none righteous, no not one.

When making statements like this, youneed to back them up with scripture.

If you are saying only those who are aware of God's law are guilty then you must also believe that anyone who has never come into contact with the 10 commandments (and that would include a lot of people) are saved from hell because of their ignorance.

No:

Rom 1:18-20 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness (they know the truth but suppress it);

: 19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.

: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:14, 15 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law.

: 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.

I am saying that an infant or a newborn just out of the womb can not know God and can not be put under the same assessment as the mature for it can not comprehend and therfore can not have a nature against God nor for God.

1: Is it natural for a newborn to rebel? What law do the know? what is the newborns motive?

2: Can a babe just out of the womb have sinfull thoughts?

3: What law do they know in their hearts yet to rebel agains?

4: What is their guilt since they are not even ignorant of a law, but unable to be put under a law?

5: Why would God, with such a great love for His creation, condemn it with Adam's sin when it has not yet sinned?

Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility of sin before they are even born which they don't deserve and one of wich HE hates?

Jesus paid the penalty for the wrath you deserve. That is GRACE! You still deserve the wrath and it is only by grace that you don't receive it. Basic Christian doctrine.

If I still deserv wrath, than you are saying that Jesus didn't take the place of wrarth on my part.

Name one thing that we do not have the God given ability to do? I have done that already. We do not have the ability to perfectly keep the Law and we also do not have the ability to overcome death. Basic Christian doctrine.

If you already have, please restate it, I missed it and can not find.

God does not hate sinners? Did you really write that? What then does the Psalmist mean when he says God HATES all workers of inequity?

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

The answer would be NO!

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Why does God take no pleasure in the death of the wicked?

He loves them, but not what they do.

I know that the Bible says thay God hates the wicked, however, He loves them as His creation.

Think of Jeramiah.

He weeped at God's judgments. He was represeanting God's heart. You may say that God weep when He judges.

You say sinners to not have a relationship with Christ? Perhaps many will say otherwise since we are told that the unsaved will be a footstool for him in the end. You may mean they don't have a saving relationship but believe me they have a relationship. Jesus is God too. At least I hope you believe that.

I do believe that Jesus is God!

However, the sinners can not call God thiere Father. That is the relaitionship I am speeking of.

[st. Worm]

For you to imply that David is only saying he was brought forth into a sinful world and not really referring to his own sinfulness is simply amazing.

I did not mean that he wasn't lamenting his own wicked ness, but I was telling you that you can not make a doctrine out of what he said. Does hyssop take our sin away? does it make us cleane?(Psa 51:7)

You really believe children are born without sin and are deemed innocent? Where is this magic age of accountability in the Bible of which you believe?

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Only God know the exact age for each child.

Do you also think the mentally ill are without sin because of their lack of understanding? How about the elderly? They must be sin free too since they aren't responsible?

Mently ill and the elderly are not the same, I will not get into that subject on this thread.

The Bible says all mankind is an object of God's wrath. There is none righteous, no not one.

When making statements like this, youneed to back them up with scripture.

If you are saying only those who are aware of God's law are guilty then you must also believe that anyone who has never come into contact with the 10 commandments (and that would include a lot of people) are saved from hell because of their ignorance.

No:

Rom 1:18-20 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness (they know the truth but suppress it);

: 19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.

: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 2:14, 15 The Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law.

: 15 Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their hearts. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them.

I am saying that an infant or a newborn just out of the womb can not know God and can not be put under the same assessment as the mature for it can not comprehend and therfore can not have a nature against God nor for God.

1: Is it natural for a newborn to rebel? What law do the know? what is the newborns motive?

2: Can a babe just out of the womb have sinfull thoughts?

3: What law do they know in their hearts yet to rebel agains?

4: What is their guilt since they are not even ignorant of a law, but unable to be put under a law?

5: Why would God, with such a great love for His creation, condemn it with Adam's sin when it has not yet sinned?

Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility of sin before they are even born which they don't deserve and one of wich HE hates?

Jesus paid the penalty for the wrath you deserve. That is GRACE! You still deserve the wrath and it is only by grace that you don't receive it. Basic Christian doctrine.

If I still deserv wrath, than you are saying that Jesus didn't take the place of wrarth on my part.

Name one thing that we do not have the God given ability to do? I have done that already. We do not have the ability to perfectly keep the Law and we also do not have the ability to overcome death. Basic Christian doctrine.

If you already have, please restate it, I missed it and can not find.

God does not hate sinners? Did you really write that? What then does the Psalmist mean when he says God HATES all workers of inequity?

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

The answer would be NO!

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Why does God take no pleasure in the death of the wicked?

He loves them, but not what they do.

I know that the Bible says thay God hates the wicked, however, He loves them as His creation.

Think of Jeramiah.

He weeped at God's judgments. He was represeanting God's heart. You may say that God weep when He judges.

You say sinners to not have a relationship with Christ? Perhaps many will say otherwise since we are told that the unsaved will be a footstool for him in the end. You may mean they don't have a saving relationship but believe me they have a relationship. Jesus is God too. At least I hope you believe that.

I do believe that Jesus is God!

However, the sinners can not call God thiere Father. That is the relaitionship I am speeking of.

This seems pointless but I will continue for awhile.

Your argument concerning the Psalm makes no sense at all. Why can't I make a doctrine out of what David is obviously saying? Both old and new testaments make reference to what we call original sin received though Adam. Romans 5:12 links our nature to our father Adam. You choose to ignore or twist real biblical references but then you invent a doctrine of age of accountability out of whole cloth. There is no scriptural support for it at all. The verse from Isaiah has nothing to do with what you are claiming it does.

Scriptural support for God's wrath against mankind and that no one is righteous? Please read the first few chapters of Romans very carefully. It is referring to the whole of mankind, men, women and children, Jew and Gentile. You are citing Romans in your response but apparently have no clue what it means.

Your assumptions about the innocence and sinlessness of infants comes from your own assumptions and are not supported by the Bible at all. I know of no verses that say all are sinners except for children that have not reached a specified age. The Bible says all stand condemned even before they commit their first act of sin. We are objects of God's wrath by nature without regard to any specific acts of sin. Wouldn't Paul at least make some reference to this age of accountability someplace in the book of Romans where he carefully builds his case about sin and humanity's universal guilt? Yet there is not any single reference whatsoever about children being exempt or not being sinners.

I almost get the impression we are talking about two different religions since your views are so far removed from the historic Christian faith and doctrine.

And yes, you do deserve God's wrath as do I. We continue to sin in thought word and deed. To deny that is to call God a liar. Grace is hardly grace if we deserve it as you seem to think you do. I feel like I am talking to a wall.

sw

[Diolectic]

Your argument concerning the Psalm makes no sense at all. Why can't I make a doctrine out of what David is obviously saying?

The Bible says, "He can command the sun not to rise" (Job 9:7)rather than, "He can command the earth to stop moving."

Make a doctrint that the sun moves and not the Earth. That God would direct His command at the sun rather than the earth, that implied the sun moves and not the Earth.

"The sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again."

(Eccles. 1:5)

Verses that spoke of the "rising" and "setting" of the sun, "hastening to its place" so that it may "rise there again," is not so easy to explain away. Why don't you make a daoctrin that the sun moved daily around the earth and not the Earth rotataing?

.

Compare Psalm 19:4-6 "In [the heavens] He has placed a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices like a strong man to run its course, its rising from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them."

Surly you can't ignore these. GO make a doctrin that the sum moves around the Earth and not the Earth rotataing.

You have plenty of Scriptural backing: The sun stood still, but it don't say that the Earth stood still.

Both old and new testaments make reference to what we call original sin received though Adam. Romans 5:12 links our nature to our father Adam.

The only thing we received though Adam is Physical death.

You choose to ignore or twist real biblical references but then you invent a doctrine of age of accountability out of whole cloth...

...Your assumptions about the innocence and sinlessness of infants comes from your own assumptions and are not supported by the Bible at all...

...The Bible says all stand condemned even before they commit their first act of sin.

So you would say that the soul of an embrio that is miscarried would go to hell.

Or an aborted baby for that matter.

I know of no verses that say all are sinners except for children that have not reached a specified age...

...Yet there is not any single reference whatsoever about children being exempt or not being sinners.

what does that verse I gave mean?

And yes, you do deserve God's wrath as do I. We continue to sin in thought word and deed. To deny that is to call God a liar. Grace is hardly grace if we deserve it as you seem to think you do. I feel like I am talking to a wall.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

If these are correct, where is the christian's guilt that you say we still have in which we still desrve hell?

Edited June 11, 2007 by Diolectic

[RedeemedByHim]

Well, I am not calvinist...but I don't think I would be quite arminiast...the A point sounded kind of off to me...but I would have to read back over it...but I don't really think I am either...

but I don't want to get into this topic, I have already stated my feelings once...

[RedeemedByHim]

well stupid me, i viewed results without voting and now it won't let me vote!

personally, i find the calvanistic doctrine to be contrary to my view of a loving Father.

amen...

[st. Worm]

Diolectic quote:

"If these are correct, where is the christian's guilt that you say we still have in which we still desrve hell?"

Dear soul, no one said you were still guilty if you are a believer. However the Bible is clear that any and all sin is deserving of God's wrath and hell. If you say you do not deserve that then you must also be saying you are now perfect and sinless in thought, word and deed and have no further need of Christ. Congratulations, no else has done that in 2000 years!

However, I am certain that is not the case. You are still a sinner and at best only counted as righteous because of Christ. You, just like the rest of us, deserve the wrath of God. However, by God's grace we will not suffer that for the sake of His only begotten. What you deserve and what you may receive are two different things. But if you truly are no longer a sinner and therefore deserving of salvation as you claim you are, then you must save lots of time not having to confess your sins! Good luck with that!

sw

[Diolectic]

No I am saying that I am no longer accountible for my sins, I am only accountible to God.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In other words, My sins are no longer accounted to my charge, therefore no deserving hell.

If there remains a desert, then the atonement is not complete.

Edited June 12, 2007 by Diolectic

[RedeemedByHim]

Diolectic quote:

"If these are correct, where is the christian's guilt that you say we still have in which we still desrve hell?"

Dear soul, no one said you were still guilty if you are a believer. However the Bible is clear that any and all sin is deserving of God's wrath and hell. If you say you do not deserve that then you must also be saying you are now perfect and sinless in thought, word and deed and have no further need of Christ. Congratulations, no else has done that in 2000 years!

No I am saying that I am no longer accountible for my sins, I am only accountible to God.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In other words, My sins are no longer accounted to my charge, therefore no deserving hell.

If there remains a desert, then the atonement is not complete.

I agree with that...just because we no longer have sin imputed to our account does not mean we are perfect...Lord knows i mess up a thousand times a day...(ok maybe that is exagerating but it sure feels like it)..It is great to be forgiven...Jesus died ONCE for ALL that all refers to our sin as well as people.

[st. Worm]

No I am saying that I am no longer accountible for my sins, I am only accountible to God.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

In other words, My sins are no longer accounted to my charge, therefore no deserving hell.

If there remains a desert, then the atonement is not complete.

Di, every time you post you restate the discussion. To discuss this with you is like trying to nail a custard pie to the side of a barn. The issue is not whether your sins are still charged to your account. The issue is what you deserve. You have a bizarre view of grace if you think you deserve grace. No one is saying you will pay the penalty for your sins if you are a believer. However for you to say you don't deserve that punishment indicates you have no idea about the gospel and the grace it entails. Everyone one of us deserves hell, but you receive Heaven if you are a believer. The only people I know who say they deserve Heaven are unbelievers who completely lack any repentance.

sw

[Diolectic]

Di, every time you post you restate the discussion. To discuss this with you is like trying to nail a custard pie to the side of a barn. The issue is not whether your sins are still charged to your account. The issue is what you deserve. You have a bizarre view of grace if you think you deserve grace. No one is saying you will pay the penalty for your sins if you are a believer. However for you to say you don't deserve that punishment indicates you have no idea about the gospel and the grace it entails. Everyone one of us deserves hell, but you receive Heaven if you are a believer. The only people I know who say they deserve Heaven are unbelievers who completely lack any repentance.

No one deserves grace, however, once one already has recieved the grace of salvation there is no more deserving of that punishment which is death and not hell.

You are mistaken that penalty of sin is hell, however, the penalty of sin is spiritual death(Rom 6:23), the penalty of sin is not ''to suffer an eternal punishment''.

The only reason That the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die without Eternal Life.

If one has Eternal Life after one dies physicaly, he comes into the presence of God, then to die physicaly without Eternal Life(spiritual death) is eternal punishment.

If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is nashing of teeth.

If I have Eternal life already and Christ has my sins covered, They are not put on my account, I remain inocent and no deserving of death anymore.

However, I am certain that is not the case. You are still a sinner and at best only counted as righteous because of Christ.

We are not sinners. Sinners are the ones who still practices sin.