Calvin vs. Arminius

[Trust & Obey]

do believe that man does have the ability to know good from evil and want to be good when confronted with what is good. I don't believe they have the ability to DO good but I do believe they can want to be good and wish to be saved.

No point in reposting the numerous Scriptures that teach otherwise I guess, since they have already been posted. But read Romans - every human is born "dead", unable to reach God on his own and lost in his sin. If anything speaks to the depravity of the human state, Romans is it. Paul was clear that there is no inherant "good" in ourselves and we are unable to seek God on our own.

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Read that passage again. Then please answer this question - How can a dead man be crucified with Christ if they are already dead?

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Dead in tresspasses in sin. Spiritually dead, not physically dead.

[Work in Progress]

How can a dead man be crucified with Christ if they are already dead?

What does that have to do with this issue??? When we are "crucified with Christ", our old nature dies and we become new creations. But this topic is about the state of every human being at birth which is totally separated from, and unable to seek, God.

Or are you trying to say you thought the belief is that people are born physically dead? Was it a joke?

I'm glad T&O answered the question, but it does boggle my mind that anyone can come away from the book of Romans not understanding the inherant condition of every human being.

It's the entire message of Scripture - why man needs a Savior.

[Guest Calamity]

do believe that man does have the ability to know good from evil and want to be good when confronted with what is good. I don't believe they have the ability to DO good but I do believe they can want to be good and wish to be saved.

No point in reposting the numerous Scriptures that teach otherwise I guess, since they have already been posted. But read Romans - every human is born "dead", unable to reach God on his own and lost in his sin. If anything speaks to the depravity of the human state, Romans is it. Paul was clear that there is no inherant "good" in ourselves and we are unable to seek God on our own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read that passage again. Then please answer this question - How can a dead man be crucified with Christ if they are already dead?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dead in tresspasses in sin. Spiritually dead, not physically dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When we are baptised with Christ 'spiritually' how can a spiritually dead man be crucified with Christ?

[Guest Calamity]

How can a dead man be crucified with Christ if they are already dead?

What does that have to do with this issue??? When we are "crucified with Christ", our old nature dies and we become new creations. But this topic is about the state of every human being at birth which is totally separated from, and unable to seek, God.

Or are you trying to say you thought the belief is that people are born physically dead? Was it a joke?

I'm glad T&O answered the question, but it does boggle my mind that anyone can come away from the book of Romans not understanding the inherant condition of every human being.

It's the entire message of Scripture - why man needs a Savior.

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You cannot crucify dead men! So therefore man is not spiritually dead - blind/deaf maybe but not dead! For if they were then they could not be crucified with Christ through the regeneration process. Unless, of course, you think regeneration happens in WATER baptism - which I do not.

[Work in Progress]

I suggest you read the book of Romans. Paul does not say man is "blind and deaf". He says that man is dead and unable to help himself in any way, shape or form. Not asleep, not comotose, dead.

Not to mention that to give the creation any credit whatsoever for his salvation is an affront to the almighty creator. The clay is a dead lump. To say it had anything to do with the shape it took is false. Only the sovereign, perfect, almighty potter can make that clay come "alive".

[WillingToDie]

Now if I happen to be saying things that Calvin taught- perhaps it's because it's BIBLICAL and we both got our doctrine from the same source- The Bible.

Actually, If I recall correclty, Calvin quoted Augustine as much as, if not more than he did the Bible.

i suggest you read a book by Dave Hunt called What Love is This?: Calvin's Misrepresentation of God

It's pretty good, and it deals with many of the scriptures that Calvinists use to back up that particular brand of theology. He also goes through and uses scripture to disprove each point of TULIP

[Work in Progress]

Sounds like an interesting book. But there are just as many proving Calvin's teachings to be right in line with Scripture.

So the best thing for anyone to do is to read the Scripture and decide for himself. Books are great, but God made Scripture easy enough for anyone to understand, and said that asking Him for wisdom will get you much.

[Guest parousia2]

well stupid me, i viewed results without voting and now it won't let me vote!

personally, i find the calvanistic doctrine to be contrary to my view of a loving Father.

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Do you also find much of the judgments of God upon entire nations (to include at times Israel) including women and children contrary to your view of a loving Father. Do you find all the "woes" given by Jesus upon that first-century wicked and perverse generation of "scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites" contrary to your view of a loving Father. To understand and accept God you must take all of His attributes and not isolate one from the others. A. W. Tozer (The Knowledge of the Holy) said it well: "All of God does all the God does." He never exercises His wrath apart from His love, or justice, or mercy, etc. We mere humans have trouble sometimes understanding that. For example, if I tell my child not to touch the stove, but he does it anyway and burns himself, I am very likely to set aside my anger at his disobedience and the justified consequences because of my mercy or love for him. For years I used to read Romans 8, skip Romans 9, and proceed with Romans 10. I did not like reading "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion" (9:15). And what about poor Pharaoh? What a pawn of God! "For this very purpose I HAVE RAISED YOU UP, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth" (9:17). How self-centered is that? Everything's about Him isn't it. All He wants is glory! How dare He? Paul continues: "Therefore He has mercy on whom HE WILLS, and whom He wills HE HARDENS" (9:18). Ouch! I didn't like that, but God said it. What could I do? The next verse convicted me as it should convict you: "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But, indeed, O man, WHO ARE YOU TO REPLY AGAINST GOD? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? . . . the vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION" (9:19-22). Did not God choose Judas to betray His Son? God [Jesus] is the author and finisher of our faith. He has the power and the authority, He has established the rules, He has paid the price. Some things are mysteries best left to God. We can know, however, through the revelation of Himself in His Word, that everything He does is good, righteous, just, loving, merciful, etc. all at the same time. "ALL of God does ALL that God does."

[Guest parousia2]

i scare you? LOL, i think you meant that in a good way

seriously though, God will not force His will upon any man, no matter how much He desires it. if calvanism is correct, then i have to wonder... even if it is not my place to question... what makes me more worthy than the next guy of being selected?

the way i see it, nothing. i don't think God thinks i'm any more worthy than the next either.

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Hi LadyC: Take a look at Deuteronomy 7:7. Perhaps that will help. God chose the nation of Israel over the other nations of earth simply because He loved her. He determined to set His love on her and not on the other nations. When Christ came, however, He made a new covenant in which He chose people out of all nations to set His love upon (Hence, "For God so loved the world . . . "). God will force His will upon any man as He so chooses--Christians are numbered among those "who were born, NOT of blood, nor of the WILL of the flesh, nor of the WILL of man, but of God" (John 1:12). "Therefore He has mercy on whom He WILLS and whom He WILLS He hardens." Like it or not, that's it. I for one am not about to talk back to God and call Him unfair! (although, to my shame, I have in the past). All we can do is trust in the fact that He has revealed Himself to be just, righteous, merciful, loving, all-knowing, everywhere present, and all-powerful. "His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways" (Isaiah 55:8). Therefore, "lean not on your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5) and "do not be wise in your own eyes" (Prov. 3:7).

[Iryssa]

OK, totally don't know where you guys are in this discussion, so feel free to ignore me completely...

I just wanted to say that I've only just figured out my stance on this *grin* 60% Calvinist, 40% Arminian.

I'm just happy I could finally submit my poll answer