Calvin vs. Arminius

[Mark777]

st. Worm,

I agree and understand that we are limited in ability to grasp God's ultimate reasoning about certain things. I do not think OSAS is one of them. It is a stiff definition of "Falling" that gets in the way. It all depends on the passage and context. At least, I do not have a problem there.

I did not mean to suggest that I knew the answer to the Lucifer question. I think certain things were just not shared with us. And like you have said maybe we are unable to understand certain things. After all our very limited state of existence literally stops us from realizing infinite knowledge. I like to think that God gives us limited examples of infinite things - like Jesus was to God.

Mark

[Guest Daave]

God loves us. That is totally substatiated by scripture. God's love is of his own free will, demonstrated by the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We love God. Here in Romans 8 we see that there is a definate purpose for events in a persons life who loves God. Love is an act accomplished only by a free will.

I'm a 50/50 vote here, I sure that is no suprise. Scriptures clearly reveal God's soverignty, and mans choice both active in the scriptures.

Daave

[Mark777]

Daave,

The Scriptures say that He loved us and because of that He called us. If it were not for these facts we would have never loved Him. God alters us before we are able to look to Him.

But

If God caused man to have a free will then God would be soverign over it tobecause He furnished the ability to choose. That is my version of this issue. That God alters the elect to be able to choose but there isn't really a choice. Once God has opened our heart there is no going back and no wanting to.

Mark

[mrs]

"That God alters the elect to be able to choose but there isn't really a choice. Once God has opened our heart there is no going back and no wanting to."

Absolutely!

[Guest Car54WhereRU]

In the vote of Calvinism/Arminianism I would be, at best, 20% Calvin. If you want to kill a church, plant a TULIP and watch it fade. I would be 20% at best because ultimately, Calvinsim leads to Arminianism....."If you are one of the elect you will do this and not do that etc." Basically it leads to a works setup to stay saved or if you are saved you will do this.....both teachings are erroneous. You can't work to be saved so what would make you think you could work to STAY saved? Read the book of Galatians and answer the question of having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? Of course not, you are complete in Jesus Christ, nothing you do can merit his favour. You have a FREE WILL, not a depraved will. Your nature is depraved.

[Mark777]

No, but when you are saved you work. Come on, get saved and try not to work.

Mark

[Guest Car54WhereRU]

No, but when you are saved you work. Come on, get saved and try not to work.

Mark

Mark, are you talking to me?

[Mark777]

Yaaa, I'm talkin ta yuz!!!

Don't you believe that when you are saved you will work?

Mark

[Guest Car54WhereRU]

Yaaa, I'm talkin ta yuz!!!

Don't you believe that when you are saved you will work?

Mark

Of course I know that when you are saved you work. Eph.2:10. If you would have read my post better you would have seen my question was "If you CANNOT work to BE saved what would make you think you could work to STAY saved?"

Context of the book of Galatians was that someone bewitched the Galatians into believing another gospel which included returning to the "weak and beggardly elements" as part of salvation.

My point was you CANNOT work to be saved, you CANNOT work to STAY saved. Salvation is complete in Jesus Christ. You can add nothing to it. That's why Col.2:10 says you are complete in him.

Car54

[Mark777]

Car,

I was trying to be humorous. Sorry if I upset you.

Mark