Calvin vs. Arminius

[Tzav_LaTzav]

Well, I did, but I think I was in too big of a hurry!

[7cworldwide]

I struggle with OSAS. Just not sure. I do believe that salvation is not based on any works, so loss of salvation cannot be due to works, but I struggle with some of the Scriptures which appear to say that works can cause a loss of salvation

...which Scriptures exactly? I want to reassure you that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves.

I struggle a bit with predestination, although I see the evidence of it all through the Bible. Struggling with this idea makes me feel like I am questioning the wisdom of G-d, which is quite an uncomfortable thought.

Indeed. I did, too. But the more you understand the biblical Truth behind the Reformed position, the easier it gets to accept.

Blessings,

Edited December 30, 2006 by 7cworldwide

[Tzav_LaTzav]

Did you think I was avoiding this thread? You were right.

I struggle with OSAS. Just not sure. I do believe that salvation is not based on any works, so loss of salvation cannot be due to works, but I struggle with some of the Scriptures which appear to say that works can cause a loss of salvation

...which Scriptures exactly? I want to reassure you that the Scriptures do not contradict themselves.

Yes, I understand that no Scripture contradicts Scripture, when it is properly translated from the autographs, and when properly-translated Scripture appears to contradict, there is error on the reader's part. Regardless, I still have questions about this, because I am a Bible student, certainly not a scholar, and I have much to learn. I have my nose in the Bible at every chance, but there is so much there as well as a lot for me to unlearn.

I struggle a bit with predestination, although I see the evidence of it all through the Bible. Struggling with this idea makes me feel like I am questioning the wisdom of G-d, which is quite an uncomfortable thought.

Indeed. I did, too. But the more you understand the biblical Truth behind the Reformed position, the easier it gets to accept.

Blessings,

I have so much to learn that I really have not broached this subject as must be done. Until I can get to the point at which I can study it, I simply live like a holiness-Arminian but accept the reformed doctrine as a likely truth.

[7cworldwide]

Man, oh man...

You sound EXACTLY like I did about a year ago.

God bless ya. It's a struggle and I know that firsthand. Just let me know if there's ever anything I can help you with... and in the meantime, let the Holy Spirit be your teacher.

Shalom,

[Guest t-rock]

well stupid me, i viewed results without voting and now it won't let me vote!

personally, i find the calvanistic doctrine to be contrary to my view of a loving Father.

I understand that, and used to be there. Romans 9:16-18 has slowly changed my thinking. The notion of loving has to be balanced with a just and holy father as well. Its a balance that does not sit easily sit right in the middle all of the time. but rather swings one way or the other according to the need of the believer at that moment of need.

[Tzav_LaTzav]

Man, oh man...

You sound EXACTLY like I did about a year ago.

God bless ya. It's a struggle and I know that firsthand. Just let me know if there's ever anything I can help you with... and in the meantime, let the Holy Spirit be your teacher.

Shalom,

Thank you! I may take you up on that!!

[mikehev]

"Important as it is that we recognize God working in us, I would yet warn against an over preoccupation with the thought. It is a sure road to sterile passivity. God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say,

[Guest obadiah]

1. "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!)

Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. (Jer. 13:23)

[jamie]

I lean towards Arminius of course!

I believe when God hardened hearts and blinded eyes it was because He already knew the wickedness and unbelief of their hearts; it was because of their own willfull wickedness, not because they were created to be wicked.

God foreknew those who would eventually use their will to serve Him. This determined their predestination. Those who are unknown to God are predestined to another place because they refused to "willingly" come to God; this caused them to be 'unknown' by God.

Predestination is determined by Gods foreknowledge of how we use our free will.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom he predestined, these he also called; and whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified, these he also glorified.

[7cworldwide]

Greetings jamie!

I allowed myself to engage in the same type of eisegesis for years. Then the Spirit of God opened my eyes to some great truths. If I may show you the simple errors in this interpretation...

God foreknew those who would eventually use their will to serve Him. This determined their predestination.

Their will determined their predestination? Respectfully, jamie, this makes no sense. It is God who is doing the act of predestining. He did this in eternity past and it had nothing to do with any quality within those predestined. Let's follow this line of thinking to its logical terminus though. You and many others assume that God's foreknowledge of those men who by nothing but their own free will will come to Him is all that is meant by predestination. From whom did they receive their will? Was this will to come to God somehow inherent in them? God is the Creator and Designer of all. I think you will agree with that. So you would have to think that the God-given will in those who choose to accept Christ is of a greater moral capacity than that of the man who never accepts Him. So why did God give to some (and not all) a will that is more apt to accepting Him? No matter how you slice it, it always ends up back in God's court.

We must take the Bible at face value on this. He determined in eternity past whom He would adopt and call His sheep.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according go his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom he predestined, these he also called; and whom he called, these he also justified; and whom he justified, these he also glorified.

If you read the whole of Romans, the context is clear. You emphasize "those who love God." But how can a man who is depraved by his very nature love God. The unregenerate man hates the law that proceeds from God. Hence he hates God. Romans 3:11 (ESV) says "no one understands; no one seeks for God." Romans 8:7 (ESV, emphasis added) says "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot." See there. It cannot. It is wholly unable. Lest God moves into the picture to draw the man to Christ (cf. John 6:44) and change his fleshly will, there is no hope. Man cannot (and will not) come to Christ without being drawn to Him. Christ said, "no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" (John 6:65, ESV). The Father chooses those whom He would efficaciously draw to Christ. The act of grace upon the elect has nothing to do with any of their human acts or attributes that were foreseen by God. It cannot be so. For if God judged solely on these things from eternity past, all mankind would be doomed to the same dreadful fate.

You place emphasis on "foreknew" in Romans 8:29. First off, in this passage, it's all about whom he foreknew... not what he foreknew about them. It's personal. This point alone destroys the Arminian view of this passage. But if that's not enough, I would encourage you to read this short study which expounds on this point and more: http://www.founders.org/FJ40/article3.html

When we remove tradition and the doctrines of men and take the Bible for what it says, the evidence is clear on predestination. It means what the Word of God says it means... nothing more, nothing less.

May God richly bless you and may we all grow in His grace.

Shalom,

Lane