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Calvin vs. Arminius


Ovedya

What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?  

353 members have voted

  1. 1. What are your theological leanings: TULIP vs. DAISY?

    • 100% Calvinist - TULIP all the way!
      82
    • 60% Calvinist 40% Arminian - Parts of TULIP are too absolute.
      33
    • 50% Calvinist 50% Arminian - Both positions have merit.
      72
    • 60% Arminian 40% Calvinist - Parts of DAISY are too absolute.
      23
    • 100% Arminian - DAISY all the way!
      70


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If your child was prior to the age of reasoning, and did not yet know he was a sinner, justly deserving God's wrath and curse, where would the Arminian say he went when he died? He'd probably say Heaven, but inconsistently. The Arminian is stuck with the necessity of the action of man to be saved, whereas covenant Theology, that of the Bible, found in Calvinism, can with good reason show that especially children of the elect are saved by virtue of their parents' faith, and of their baptism. Furthermore, they might even be so bold as to say that all infants dying in infancy are elect.
What does a child prior to the age of reasoning need saved from?

The child would go to heaven because it had not yet sinned, no inconsistency there.

Children prior to the age of reasoning are saved not by virtue of their parents' faith, but by virtue of inocence.

Calvinism on the other hand is consistently glorifying to God,
On the contrary, I have learnd that Calvinism makes God out to be a tyrant that make demands without providing away to comply.

The demand to repent with out giving the faith or the so called regeneration to even repent.

I have a view that makes Man responsible for being thrown to hell while Calvinism, on the other hand, makes God to be pre-damning people before the foundation of the world which makes hell not only made for the devil and his angles only, but also for man.

The Bible no more teaches that the sufferings and death of Christ was for every individual than it teaches that the OT sacrificial system was for anyone but the covenant community of Israel and NOT for the pagans on the outside of that covenant.
Do you even know what atonement is?

Did Christ die for the sins of Pharoah?
Yes!

How eles would one say to sinners while preaching to them, "repent for Christ died for your sinns that you might be saved from God's wrath."

You cannot (and God cannot) punish Christ for the sins of a man, and then also punish that man for his sins.
God will punish that man for his sins if that man does not take advantage of Christ's sacrifice.

The atonement is limited not in power but in scope.
Quit deminishing the Atonement!

Atonement is not only effectual after one believes.

You make the atonement of Christ a potential work instead of an active work. You make the atonement of Christ exclusive and not inclusive.

The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

If your child was prior to the age of reasoning, and did not yet know he was a sinner, justly deserving God's wrath and curse, where would the Arminian say he went when he died? He'd probably say Heaven, but inconsistently. The Arminian is stuck with the necessity of the action of man to be saved, whereas covenant Theology, that of the Bible, found in Calvinism, can with good reason show that especially children of the elect are saved by virtue of their parents' faith, and of their baptism. Furthermore, they might even be so bold as to say that all infants dying in infancy are elect.
What does a child prior to the age of reasoning need saved from?

The child would go to heaven because it had not yet sinned, no inconsistency there.

Children prior to the age of reasoning are saved not by virtue of their parents' faith, but by virtue of inocence.

Calvinism on the other hand is consistently glorifying to God,
On the contrary, I have learnd that Calvinism makes God out to be a tyrant that make demands without providing away to comply.

The demand to repent with out giving the faith or the so called regeneration to even repent.

I have a view that makes Man responsible for being thrown to hell while Calvinism, on the other hand, makes God to be pre-damning people before the foundation of the world which makes hell not only made for the devil and his angles only, but also for man.

The Bible no more teaches that the sufferings and death of Christ was for every individual than it teaches that the OT sacrificial system was for anyone but the covenant community of Israel and NOT for the pagans on the outside of that covenant.
Do you even know what atonement is?

Did Christ die for the sins of Pharoah?
Yes!

How eles would one say to sinners while preaching to them, "repent for Christ died for your sinns that you might be saved from God's wrath."

You cannot (and God cannot) punish Christ for the sins of a man, and then also punish that man for his sins.
God will punish that man for his sins if that man does not take advantage of Christ's sacrifice.

The atonement is limited not in power but in scope.
Quit deminishing the Atonement!

Atonement is not only effectual after one believes.

You make the atonement of Christ a potential work instead of an active work. You make the atonement of Christ exclusive and not inclusive.

The work of Christ on His cross makes away for salvation while the salvation it's self comes from the relationship one has with Him and not just in what he did on the cross.

Although I am no Calvinist, I know the Bible teaches that none are righteous and that sin is more than just an act. The heresy of Pelagianism, still prevalent today, teaches that sin is merely what we do, our acts of sin. However, the Bible teaches that we are sinners from conception. The act of sin is merely a manifestation of what we are, sinners. I urge you to reconsider your views. Indeed God does demand from us things we cannot do such as perfect compliance to his law. That fact does not make us any less responsible for our sins. Is God unfair for demanding that we do what we are unable? Of course not! We stand condemned and deservedly so. As far as "relationship" with Christ goes, the term itself is not from the Bible and has nothing to do with the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died for our sins at the cross. Believe it! Relationship as far as the gospel goes is just seeker sensitive maudlin garbage.

In Jesus,

sw

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Guest RaisedBaptist

St. worm your all means all argument puts you in a tough spot. if some people go to hell and some go to heven then all are not saved. so in the aspect of the atonement you must beleive one of three things

1 all are saved and hell doesn't exsist

2. God is in complete and utter control

3. It is up to man in his free will to decide

Help me out with this one? :huh:

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St. worm your all means all argument puts you in a tough spot. if some people go to hell and some go to heven then all are not saved. so in the aspect of the atonement you must beleive one of three things

1 all are saved and hell doesn't exsist

2. God is in complete and utter control

3. It is up to man in his free will to decide

Help me out with this one? :24:

Not sure why you say I am in a "tough spot" with my argument. Indeed God is in complete control. That issue should never be in question. But the Bible clearly teaches that Christ died for all sinners. The benefits of the cross however are applied through the means of grace, Word and Sacrament, to God's elect and if we do not receive the gift of faith through those means, then Christ's death does us no good.

sw

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Guest Biblicist
ALL means ALL or are you going to bring a Bill Clinton type argument in and say is does not really mean is!

blessings,

sw

ALL in God's Word does not mean the modern version of all. . .

All ~ pas

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts

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ALL means ALL or are you going to bring a Bill Clinton type argument in and say is does not really mean is!

blessings,

sw

ALL in God's Word does not mean the modern version of all. . .

All ~ pas

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types

"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts

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Although I am no Calvinist, I know the Bible teaches that none are righteous and that sin is more than just an act. The heresy of Pelagianism, still prevalent today, teaches that sin is merely what we do, our acts of sin.
Sin is an act and also of the will.

the Bible teaches that we are sinners from conception.
You only think that because you say that sin is more than an act or of the will.

Furthermore, you must be missunderstanding the Scriptures to think it.

The act of sin is merely a manifestation of what we are, sinners.
We are sinners because that is what we do, sin.

We are human, not sinners in the way you imply.

I urge you to reconsider your views.
I've grown in my views for 20 years, they have changed and mutured and I am still growing and learning. I will be persuaded of the truth, will you?

Indeed God does demand from us things we cannot do such as perfect compliance to his law. That fact does not make us any less responsible for our sins.
On the contrary, God only demands from us what He will enable us to do.

HE demands nothing that we are incapable to do.

He will always give the help for what He commands.

Is God unfair for demanding that we do what we are unable? Of course not! We stand condemned and deservedly so.
No, because He has made away for all to comply with His demands and we stand condemned and deservedly so, only because we do not repent and be saved from His wrath.

However, I do not deserve His wrath because of His blood, Amen!

Relationship as far as the gospel goes is just seeker sensitive maudlin garbage.
Do not throw away relationship!

Why do we call HIM Father?

The relationship is what saves us, read John 17:3.

Edited by Diolectic
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Although I am no Calvinist, I know the Bible teaches that none are righteous and that sin is more than just an act. The heresy of Pelagianism, still prevalent today, teaches that sin is merely what we do, our acts of sin.
Sin is an act and also of the will.

the Bible teaches that we are sinners from conception.
You only think that because you say that sin is more than an act or of the will.

Furthermore, you must be missunderstanding the Scriptures to think it.

The act of sin is merely a manifestation of what we are, sinners.
We are sinners because that is what we do, sin.

We are human, not sinners in the way you imply.

I urge you to reconsider your views.
I've grown in my views for 20 years, they have changed and mutured and I am still growing and learning. I will be persuaded of the truth, will you?

Indeed God does demand from us things we cannot do such as perfect compliance to his law. That fact does not make us any less responsible for our sins.
On the contrary, God only demands from us what He will enable us to do.

HE demands nothing that we are incapable to do.

He will always give the help for what He commands.

Is God unfair for demanding that we do what we are unable? Of course not! We stand condemned and deservedly so.
No, because He has made away for all to comply with His demands and we stand condemned and deservedly so, only because we do not repent and be saved from His wrath.

However, I do not deserve His wrath because of His blood, Amen!

Relationship as far as the gospel goes is just seeker sensitive maudlin garbage.
Do not throw away relationship!

Why do we call HIM Father?

The relationship is what saves us, read John 17:3.

Sin is not only an act of the will. Sin defines our nature. We sin because we are sinners. We sin because we were conceived as sinners "Surely I was sinful from birth, from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps 51:5). .... . It is not merely the act of sin that makes us sinners. That is heretical. The Bible also says we are by nature objects of wrath indicating clearly that we stand condemned without regard to our specific acts of sin. We are condemned because of our very nature as sinners.

God demands much more from us than we can do. He demands perfection from us 100% of the time and we stand condemned because we cannot keep His laws perfectly. If you think otherwise I think that belief probably flows from your Pelagian view of sin.

Yes, you do deserve His wrath as do we all. To say you do not indicates you may not understand the gospel or even the need for it. As the Apostle said we all fall short and only the work of Christ and our faith in Him rescues us from what we justly deserve, which is God's punishment.

The term "relationship with Christ" is modernity at its worst. Everyone has a relationship with Christ, even those will eternally perish. It is faith in Christ that justifies us in God's sight. Using cute terms like that only serve to misguide sinners and they put more trust in their "relationship" then they do Christ alone.

sw

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Guest Biblicist
LOL!! I knew someone would come on here and say ALL does not really mean ALL! Dear soul, how can you accuse anyone of taking Scripture out of context when you try and change the words to meet your needs like that? Jesus is indeed the Savior of ALL men as the passage states. However not all receive the gift of faith in Him and are saved.

sw

I am not trying to change words to mean what I wish them to say. It's simple hermeneutics, understanding the context of the scripture [all scripture is the context], the writter, and the audience. Since the Bible was not written in English it's important to go back to the original text to exegete the proper meaning.

Everyone knows that the meanings of words change as often as the seasons. Fly does not mean "to take flight in the air as a bird" in some circles, it could mean really cool or beautiful. To "fence" does not always mean fight with a sword or put up a barrier around one's property. It could also mean to "turn over stolen goods". In each instance it is important to understand the audience you are talking to and their meaning of the word for proper understanding.

The meaning of elect, or chosen ones, is quite clear.

Although I do not believe one is exclusive of the other. Once the eyes are opened we are free to choose the Saviour. The blind can not choose to see. You can give them a lecture on seeing, explain to them the value of sight; but unless and until their sight has been restored they will NOT see. There is only One who can restore the sight of man. Jesus came to make the blind man see. (John 9:39)

Free Will, as some believe it to be, died with the sin Adam and Eve brought into this world. No longer do we have the free will to choose God without His divine interference. He first must choose to soften our hearts, open our eyes to the truth. Only then are we free to choose to obey him. He tells us we were chosen from the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:19-21). Instead of it being a curse on the unsaved, it should be a blessing and an assurance to those of us who are Saved.

It makes no sense to argue about it. Who are we to question God? How can we know who is and is not chosen? Did he not tell us to "Go into all the world and preach and teach"? Who are we to question whom to teach or not? Will we all act like Jonah and argue with God over whether or not the Ninevites should be saved?

Rather, we should be concerned with obeying His commands, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."

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Sin is not only an act of the will. Sin defines our nature. We sin because we are sinners. We sin because we were conceived as sinners "Surely I was sinful from birth, from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps 51:5). .... . It is not merely the act of sin that makes us sinners. That is heretical.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

Iniquity is the consequence of sin. David is simply stating that the world is full of sin, he didn't say that he was "brought forth with iniquity. He did not say that he was conceived with sin.

Lamentations 5:7 Our fathers sinned and are no more, But we bear their iniquities

There are circumsatances to sinnes that one must bear, these is this verse relate to the circumsatances of their fathers sins, not the judgment of guilt.

Leviticus 26:39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies

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Sin is not only an act of the will. Sin defines our nature. We sin because we are sinners. We sin because we were conceived as sinners "Surely I was sinful from birth, from the time my mother conceived me" (Ps 51:5). .... . It is not merely the act of sin that makes us sinners. That is heretical.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.

Iniquity is the consequence of sin. David is simply stating that the world is full of sin, he didn't say that he was "brought forth with iniquity. He did not say that he was conceived with sin.

Lamentations 5:7 Our fathers sinned and are no more, But we bear their iniquities

There are circumsatances to sinnes that one must bear, these is this verse relate to the circumsatances of their fathers sins, not the judgment of guilt.

Leviticus 26:39 And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies

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