Condemnation or Grace?

[tsth]

People have always gotten angry over the testimonies about sin/evil deeds. (especially those who were seemingly of God) If you are despising the testimonies from the Word regarding sin, you might have to wonder why? Why are you so offended?

John 7:6 Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

Mt 11:6 - Show Context

And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

Mt 13:57 -

So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."

Mt 15:12 -

Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"

Mt 24:10 -

And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

Mr 6:3 -

Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?" And they were offended at Him.

Lu 7:23 -

And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

(Sometimes it's important to examine why we are bothered by someone speaking. Especially when they are merely speaking from Scriptures/God's Word.)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

When we see the same people over and over preaching only condemnation, judgment, and calling Believers "Sin", Sin, Sin" and ignoring the mercy, forgiveness and grace of G-d for our sin, then we have to consider that person is not balanced in thei walk and may have a critical spirit as a means to avoid their own sin.

The message we should be hearing is grace, mercy and forgiveness of our sins and we serve G-d because we LOVE Him and recognize what He has forgiven us from, not because we are afraid of losing salvation or being condemned. And yet, balanced with that we are expected by G-d to walk holy as He is holy and to walk in His ways, not to continue to willfully sin. But, if we DO sin we can know G-d's forgiveness again through Jesus, if we truly repent and desire to walk according to His Word.

That is the Biblical message, not the lopsided one we keep seeing of condemnation only with no grace.

[EricH]

People have always gotten angry over the testimonies about sin/evil deeds. (especially those who were seemingly of God) If you are despising the testimonies from the Word regarding sin, you might have to wonder why? Why are you so offended?

John 7:6 Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

This is a statement about the world system (greek word kosmos used in the sense of the system that is opposed to God). It was not meant to be applied to believers who are maintaining that salvation is through faith alone.

Mt 11:6 - Show Context

And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

This statment was in reference to John the baptist who was questioning whether or not Jesus was really the messiah. Jesus listed his credentials in 11:5:

the blind see, the lame walk, those with skin diseases are healed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor are told the good news.

Mattthew 11:5 HCSB

11:6 basically says that it will be the people who are blessed who recognize Jesus works as being those of the predicted savior.

Mt 13:57 -

So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house."

This stateent was directed at people from Jesus' home town, who could not believe he was the messiah because they had seen him grow up there.

Mt 15:12 -

Then His disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"

This was a statement directed at Pharisees who were legalists, and had added to God's precepts additional laws to over-burden people (see 15:9).

Mt 24:10 -

And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

No argument here. one of the signs of the end-ties will be people turning on one another

(Sometimes it's important to examine why we are bothered by someone speaking. Especially when they are merely speaking from Scriptures/God's Word.)

In His Love,

Suzanne

The passages you provided above show people who were offended by jesus because he was not what they expected. He came with a message of grace. They wanted someone who would kill the Romans. They were not statments about the sinfulness of believers. I thinkl that part of the problem your position has it that it attempts to apply passages that were adressed to unbelievers to the church.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Suzanne,

And again we see blanket judgment. Who said anyone is angry or offended by the WORD?

Assigning heart motives and judging hearts that man has no business doing. That is G-d's job and we are not G-d.

Do not so quickly assume that the posts in disagreement are the disagreement with the WORD, but in fact, disagreement with what we see from posters who wrongly interpret the Word and misapply the Word to judge and condemn, rather than let G-d be G-d in someone's life.

[tsth]

They were not statments about the sinfulness of believers. I thinkl that part of the problem your position has it that it attempts to apply passages that were adressed to unbelievers to the church.

John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Smalcald]

It is interesting the spiritual nature of sin, our own and others and the sin in our congregations.

What does scripture say about our role in this area? I think we have some guidance on if we are to show other people their sin or not and how to do that.

From what I see, the sweep of scripture would indicate that scripturally we are to focus on ourselves first. Thus when we see a scripture which says do not fornicate, or do not have lust, that scripture is speaking to me, not my brother. The church has a responsibility to proclaim the truth of the Gospel and part of that is forgiveness of our sins, but to have true forgiveness we must recognize our sin, so yes we the church as a group needs to help people understand what sin is.

For me I just think we can drive ourselves really really crazy if we worry about the sinful nature of other people and other Christians, I know I do not grow in any spiritual way if I am focusing on some other people's sin; in fact I become negative, unhappy and so forth. I have enough of my own sin to worry about; I guess that is why I am not called to be a minister.

[EricH]

They were not statments about the sinfulness of believers. I thinkl that part of the problem your position has it that it attempts to apply passages that were adressed to unbelievers to the church.

John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

This was a reference to Jesus being rejected by his people of national origin (as a nation). It was not a statment about saved believers rejecting Him

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Same as above

[Vickilynn]

They were not statments about the sinfulness of believers. I think that part of the problem your position has it that it attempts to apply passages that were adressed to unbelievers to the church.

John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

This was a reference to Jesus being rejected by his people of national origin (as a nation). It was not a statment about saved believers rejecting Him

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Same as above

Shalom Eric,

Thank you. Amen. Very important distinction when we see misusing the Scriptures to judge people's hearts. The context is extremely important when applying the Scriptures. We can't rip them out of context and attempt to make a point with them that the Scriptures did not intend.

Jesus preached grace, not condemnation. This what this thread is all about.

[damo1]

damo1

one of the reasons i come down on those that love to stick to the old laws and alow religon to rule them if you realy understand what my sister vickilynn is saying hear you will see why this post is set up the way it is it is very simple to understand but as i said when we allow religon and the law to rule over us this is were we loose it and when we do this we start to act as if we have a right to say but jesus said this but jesus did this

why is it that this topic is being pulled one way when you asked Jesus into your lives and you repented of your sins did Jesus forgive you ? or did he throw your sin in your face and condem you for the things you did when you were worshiping the spirit of this world ?

As brother Eric H pointed out in his two posts on this topic the people in his village found it hard to beleive what Jesus had to say

lets look at what Galations says on this if you feel that we need to preach on repentance and bring in condemnation

Galations 1 only one Gospel

6 i marvel that you are turning away so soon from him who called you in the grace of christ to a diffrent gospel

7 which is not another but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of christ

this is what i see happening hear why are we trying to pervert what christ had already done on the cross and why do you like to bring in trouble to those who want nothing to do with religon and the old law ?

This is what i see happening hear religon trying to take over to the point were we bash people over the head which is some thing i will not put up with or allow to rule over me and if i see some one being pounded i will stand up and pounce back until it sinks in we have not got this god given right to sit in on judgment on those who truely are seeking christ and wanting to draw close to him

if you are happy with having religon and the old laws rule over your life good for you but please do not trash this topic and turn it into an all out war zone by making foolish state ments saying jesus taught his disciples to preach on repentance and remissions of sins

it is up to the holy spirit to bring in conviction that is the holy spirits role and when the holy spirit does this he does in in a jentle way he does not have a 4x 4 and wacks you over the head or does the holy spirit raise his voice he is a jentle man just like god is and just like jesus is

what i see in the last few posts is this religon is trying its hardest to grab hold of those who have brokken away and when religon sees that it is loosing it will almost do anything to make it hard for those of us who are wanting to have nothing to do with religon

Jesus dealt with this paul also dealt with this

Galations 2 no return to the law

17 but if while we seek to be justified by christ we our selves also are found sinners is christ therefore the

minister of sin ? certainly not

18 for if i build again those things which i destroyed i make my self a transgressor

19 for i through the law died to the law that i might live to god

20 i have been crucified with christ it is no longer i who live but christ lives in me and the life which i now live

in the flesh i live by faith in the son of god who loved me and gave him self for me

21 i do not set aside the grace of god for if rigteousness comes through the law then christ died in vain

Galations 3 the law brings a curse

11 but that no one is justified by the law in the sight of god is evident for the just shal live by faith

12 yet the law is not of faith but the man who does them shall live by them

13 christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law having become a curse for us it is written cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree

purpose of the law

19 what purpose then does the law serve it was added because of transgressions till the seed should come

to whom the promise was made and it was appointed through angels by the hands of the mediator

20 now the meidator does not mediate for one only but god is one

21 is the law then against the promises of god ? Certainly not for if there had been a law given which could have given life truley righteousness would have been by the law

22 but the scripture has confined all under sin that the promise by faith in Jesus christ might be given to those who believe

23 but before faith came we were kept under gaurd by the law kept for the faith which would afterward be reveald

24 therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to christ that we might be justified by faith

25 but after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor

realy are the last two posters trying to say something like we have to alow religon and the law to rule over us like it did with the people in the time paul and peter were talking to ?

first of all i wil say this the law was used to reveal sin not to secure righteousness it was a temporary measure

introduced to convince people of their need of justification and there inability to save them selves thus leading them to christ

what is being said is driving people away from god when we preach on doom and gloom if christ were to walk into a church today and would sit next to you and if he were to walk down the main street and hear some one preaching on doom and on gloom and telling everyone they wil go to hell i feel that he would do what he did with the pharisees

he would openly rebuke you to your face

John 12 says this to me

46 i have come as a light into the world that whoever beleives in me should not abide in darkness

47 and if anyone hears my words and does not believe i do not judge him for i did not come to Judge the world

but to save the world

48 he who rejects me and does not receive my words has that which judges him the word that i have spoken

will judge him in the last day

i dont see gods son sitting on his high horse in these verses and saying what i have heard so far in this topic

this is why i am calling it as it is what i see hear is religon and the law trying its hardest to crush gods people from walking in that freedom Jesus is talking about

know i see why i hate religon and the law so much christ has set me free i no longer need to be bound by religon or the old laws it is christ who lives in me not religon or the old laws

other wise i might as well go back to living in sin were i was mocking god to his face constantly by his grace i am who i am if i sin he forgives me jesus never lays the guilt trip on me

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[tsth]

You're right. But, it has everything to do with those who would not listen, because they were "sure" they were OK.

In His Love,

Suzanne