Bush, Cheney subject to arrest?

[buckthesystem]

The average German citizen was loyal for the very same reasons that Americans were loyal to Roosevelt, or the Italians to Mussolini, the British to the king, and the Japanese to the Emperor. In wartime you support your country and the leaders of your country. Plain and simple.

The average German was unaware of all the atrocities that Hitler and his gang were doing.

And it was the holocaust that pushed world opinion forward in giving the Jewish people a home and safe haven.

Churchill's White Paper of 1922 says that a totally Jewish state was not the intention of the Balfour agreement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_White_Paper%2C_1922

Get real Kari: You said: "The average German citizen was loyal for the very same reasons that Americans were loyal to Roosevelt, or the Italians to Mussolini, the British to the king, and the Japanese to the Emperor. In wartime you support your country and the leaders of your country. Plain and simple". No! This was not the case! "The average German citizen was loyal ..." because they would have been "denounced" by their obsequious, tell-tale, neighbours if they weren't and ended up in the concentration camps themselves. The truth is that throughout history "leaders" have relied on force and corruption, using other peoples' money against them, to get "what they want". Now do you seriously think that God would "ordain" somebody who would do that?

And as for your statement: "The average German was unaware of all the atrocities that Hitler and his gang were doing". Yeah, right, they "didn't know". Of course they knew exactly what the atrocities that Hitler and his gang were doing were. Do you believe that the people living in a village a short distance from a work camp where the prisoners were forcibly being marched every day from the camp to the town to work could not be seen or smelt by the townspeople?

When I was a teenager one of our neighbours was a survivor of a concentration camp. He had survived by being in a work gang with other men who were forcibly marched into the town at gun point every day to work. Those who were weak or sick or tired and were slow as a result were bashed and sometimes killed by the guards on the way. This was all in full view of people living in the town and on the route between the camp and the town (a distance of about 12 miles). I remember him telling me that children used to line the route and spit on the prisoners and swear at them, he also said that anyone who failed to see what was going on couldn't have failed to smell them. According to him, the prisoners smelled really bad and anyone who died along the way (although it was snowy) was just left to rot there.

I also don't believe that all the German civilian population were inpervious to the smell from the crematoria and the camps themselves.

Somehow I just can't see God ordaining any of this.

Now wha ever was Churchill's intention in 1922 the Balfour agreement did result in the Jewish homeland and I don't think it would have needed the Holocaust to make it succeed.

[buckthesystem]

We all, like it or not, are told to submit ourselves to our government. This does not tell us that we have to agree with them, but abide by the laws set down to us. We may not like those in power, but were are to submit, as a slave does to their master. Nothing is said that we have to agree with them. Remember, God is in control, even if we can not see His hand in motion.

OneLight

So Onelight you think we should all be slaves of the government. Well that would be a really odd situation, "slaves that pay for their masters to exist".

Oh, unless you are comparing us to farm animals who "produce" for their master in exchange for a place to sleep and food ....... hey, wait a minute .... no government ever provided its people with a place to sleep and food. God has done that, but not members of man's government. And it get even more puzzling because God through the people of a country always provide a place to sleep and food for members of man's government and yet you are saying they are the slaves of the members of man's government.

Now there's got to be an explanation here somewhere ....... hmm, just got to do a lot of figuring out, twisting facts maybe?

[OneLight]

We all, like it or not, are told to submit ourselves to our government. This does not tell us that we have to agree with them, but abide by the laws set down to us. We may not like those in power, but were are to submit, as a slave does to their master. Nothing is said that we have to agree with them. Remember, God is in control, even if we can not see His hand in motion.

OneLight

So Onelight you think we should all be slaves of the government. Well that would be a really odd situation, "slaves that pay for their masters to exist".

Oh, unless you are comparing us to farm animals who "produce" for their master in exchange for a place to sleep and food ....... hey, wait a minute .... no government ever provided its people with a place to sleep and food. God has done that, but not members of man's government. And it get even more puzzling because God through the people of a country always provide a place to sleep and food for members of man's government and yet you are saying they are the slaves of the members of man's government.

Now there's got to be an explanation here somewhere ....... hmm, just got to do a lot of figuring out, twisting facts maybe?

So, I'm no good at paraphrasing, but I'm sure you're smart enough to get the picture. Just in case you're really having a hard time with it ...

Romans 13:1-7

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God

[buckthesystem]

[

So, I'm no good at paraphrasing, but I'm sure you're smart enough to get the picture. Just in case you're really having a hard time with it ...

Romans 13:1-7

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God

[MorningGlory]

Well strictly speaking in a true democracy, like it or not, that is exactly what should happen.

Nothing has to be "universal" - just majority! I don't know why it has to be "universal" in this case.

Maybe in a true democracy......which the U.S. is not. We are a Federalist Republic and do not operate on the 'one man, one vote' or 'majority rules' principles.

[Guest shiloh357]

Yeah, right, they "didn't know". Of course they knew exactly what the atrocities that Hitler and his gang were doing were. Do you believe that the people living in a village a short distance from a work camp where the prisoners were forcibly being marched every day from the camp to the town to work could not be seen or smelt by the townspeople?

Well, in the name of accuracy, most of the camps were not in Germany. Most of the Death camps were in Poland. Hitler kept most of the camps out of Germany. The main camps in Germany were Dacau, Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald. The rest were Poland such as Auschwitz and several others. The six most notorious death camps were in Poland, not Germany. Dachau was the only one of the main three camps in Germany with a crematorium. Even so, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen were not extermination camps such as Auschwitz. The bulk of the 6 million Jews who died, died in Poland not Germany.

Furthermore, the whole reason that the Jews were first gathered up and walled into ghettos was to get them out of the public eye of the Germans so they could be dealt with away from the public eye. Obviously some germans knew, particularly because they were soldiers and doctors in the camps as well as other personnel. However, they were forbidden from discussing with outside acquaintances, what was going on ( I am sure they broke that law many times, though). However, the majority would not have known or at least did not know just how bad the conditions in the camps were.

It is also important to know that the Nazis controlled the airwaves and controlled what the people heard, down to the kind of music they were allowed to listen to. That is an important fact. A lot of information was withheld from the regular German populace.

Now wha ever was Churchill's intention in 1922 the Balfour agreement did result in the Jewish homeland and I don't think it would have needed the Holocaust to make it succeed.

First of all, Buck, it was not called the Balfour agreement. It was known as the Balfour Declaration. It had NO effect on the establishment of a Jewish state. It simply was a short paragraph acknowledging that the English government looked with favor upon the establishment of a Jewish state. That was in 1917. By 1922, the British mandate and it the purpose it was meant to serve had been abandoned. Instead of establishing a Jewish state, the British took 75% of Palestine which was meant for the Jews and gave it to the Arabs. The Arabs were allowed to immigrate not only into the 75% (now called Jordan) but were also allowed to immigrate into the remaining 25% that was supposed to be for the Jews. However the Jews were NOT allowed to immigrate into across the river into the new nation of Trans-Jordan. Furthermore, the British restricted Jewish immigration from Europe and thanks to the British empire putting oil ahead of human lives, millions of Jews in Europe were forced to remain there and later become victims of Hitler' madness. Jews who wanted to flee to the Holy Land were denied access. British oil interests in the region forced them to allow unrestricted Arab immigration into Palestine and deny Jewish access to it.

The Balfour declaration had nothing to do with the creation of the Jewish state and it is highly unlikely that had the holocaust not occurred that the world would not have had sufficient sympathy (or guilt) for what the Jewish people suffered to have agreed to rebirth of Israel.

[buckthesystem]

Well, in the name of accuracy, most of the camps were not in Germany. Most of the Death camps were in Poland. Hitler kept most of the camps out of Germany. The main camps in Germany were Dacau, Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald. The rest were Poland such as Auschwitz and several others. The six most notorious death camps were in Poland, not Germany. Dachau was the only one of the main three camps in Germany with a crematorium. Even so, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen were not extermination camps such as Auschwitz. The bulk of the 6 million Jews who died, died in Poland not Germany.

Furthermore, the whole reason that the Jews were first gathered up and walled into ghettos was to get them out of the public eye of the Germans so they could be dealt with away from the public eye. Obviously some germans knew, particularly because they were soldiers and doctors in the camps as well as other personnel. However, they were forbidden from discussing with outside acquaintances, what was going on ( I am sure they broke that law many times, though). However, the majority would not have known or at least did not know just how bad the conditions in the camps were.

It is also important to know that the Nazis controlled the airwaves and controlled what the people heard, down to the kind of music they were allowed to listen to. That is an important fact. A lot of information was withheld from the regular German populace.

Yep, you're totally right about this. I was just glossing over it to make the point that (or so I believed) the average German did know what was going on. I watched a documentary a few months ago about how the British had extremely clear aerial photographs of several concentration camps, taken over Poland, Germany and other places. The narrator was saying that "nobody realised their significance because nobody bothered to analyse them". When they showed the photographs, after a few seconds I thought it was obvious what they were, and I didn't even have to go and get my glasses. I think that generally there was far more widespread knowledge of those things than we are led to believe.

Now wha ever was Churchill's intention in 1922 the Balfour agreement did result in the Jewish homeland and I don't think it would have needed the Holocaust to make it succeed.

First of all, Buck, it was not called the Balfour agreement. It was known as the Balfour Declaration. It had NO effect on the establishment of a Jewish state. It simply was a short paragraph acknowledging that the English government looked with favor upon the establishment of a Jewish state. That was in 1917. By 1922, the British mandate and it the purpose it was meant to serve had been abandoned. Instead of establishing a Jewish state, the British took 75% of Palestine which was meant for the Jews and gave it to the Arabs. The Arabs were allowed to immigrate not only into the 75% (now called Jordan) but were also allowed to immigrate into the remaining 25% that was supposed to be for the Jews. However the Jews were NOT allowed to immigrate into across the river into the new nation of Trans-Jordan. Furthermore, the British restricted Jewish immigration from Europe and thanks to the British empire putting oil ahead of human lives, millions of Jews in Europe were forced to remain there and later become victims of Hitler' madness. Jews who wanted to flee to the Holy Land were denied access. British oil interests in the region forced them to allow unrestricted Arab immigration into Palestine and deny Jewish access to it.

The Balfour declaration had nothing to do with the creation of the Jewish state and it is highly unlikely that had the holocaust not occurred that the world would not have had sufficient sympathy (or guilt) for what the Jewish people suffered to have agreed to rebirth of Israel.

You are, of course, right here too! My only excuse is that I was again glossing over things to make a point. I still think Israel would have existed without being prompted by the Haulocaust because the Jewish people have been picked on for centuries. Surely people would have realised that that made it so they deserved their own country returned. I don't want to believe that so many people had to suffer and die before the world had had enough.

[Guest shiloh357]

You are, of course, right here too! My only excuse is that I was again glossing over things to make a point. I still think Israel would have existed without being prompted by the Haulocaust because the Jewish people have been picked on for centuries. Surely people would have realised that that made it so they deserved their own country returned.

Well, if that were true, then Israel would have existed as nation centuries before 1948. Unfortunately, it took something as massive as the Holocaust to bring the world to the realization of what the Jews had already known long before: The Jews needed their own country. The return to Israel was and still is, a main theme of Jewish prayers for nearly two millenia.

Israel, from a totally secular perspective though, was created to be a safe haven for Jewish people to escape the persecution that had been afflicted upon them for centuries in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust. Actually, that was the vision of Theodore Herzl long before the Holocaust and WW2. While millions of other nonJewish people died as well, the Jewish people were the primary target and have the single largest casualty rate in comparison to the other groups. In fact, it is only because Jewish people have kept the memory of the Holocaust alive that we really have any awareness of the others who also died in Hitler's madness.

I don't want to believe that so many people had to suffer and die before the world had had enough.

What makes you think the world has had enough? Even now the world expects Israel (the Jewish people) to commit national suicide. Israel is the target of intense, irrational, international denigration. Israel is expected to make insane concessions to blood thirsty terrorists and holocaust deniers like Mahmoud Abbas. Israel is expected to make concessions that NO other country would make were they facing a similar threat to what Israel faces. Israel is condemened and singled out for special condemnation for actions and policies of self-defense that do not warrant even minor criticisms when those same policies are employed by nonJewish nations. Israel is still the ONLY nation in the world that is forced to justify its right to exist. The world has not had a enough. They are just getting started. Anti-Zionism (whether it is expressed by Jews or Gentiles) is nothing more than anti-Semitism expressed on a global scale. Anti-Semitism is the denial of Jews the benefit of equal rights in a given community. Anti-Zionism is the denial of the nation of Israel the right to exist as an equal member of the community of nations.

[kari21]

If I could make it any bigger I would.

Yours,

A Tactless Freedom-Loving Jerk

Lorax, I apologize for calling you a jerk. I've been very stressed out lately.

[kari21]

Shiloh, as usual, your posts ROCK!

I would be happy with just a quarter of your knowledge...