Where do we go when we die?

[Guest sword of truth]

There is no reason to interpret the passage figuratively.

on the contrary there is every reason.

Is the Rich Man and Lazarus disembodied spirits? If yes, then we have two ghosts devoid of bodies and bodily organs. But there is not the slightest reference in the story to a spirit of man or a soul. The Rich man is pictured as having eyes that see (verse 23) a tongue that speaks (verse 24) and as seeking relief from cooling water by means of the finger of Lazarus - real body parts.

Disembodied spirits are supposed to be able to travel anywhere yet we see in verse 26 a great chasm is fixed so that it is not possible to pass from side to the other.

If the Rich man and Lazarus are spirits then they are inconsistently portrayed as being physical with physical limitations. If they are not spirits but are in fact physical then the imagery of the parable indicates that the dead in their graves are infused with life.

The Jehovah's Witnesses also use the same weak argument about the punctuation in the passage. Sound exegesis, based on parallel passages, supports the phrase: Today you will be with me in paradise. There is no merit to "I tell you today, you will be with me someday."

So you believe that Jesus and the thief went to paradise on the friday? What did Jesus mean when the said to mary on the sunday "dont cling to me because i havnt yet accended to my father.

Weak arguement about the puctuation mark. Is that the best you can say. Its a very stong arguement. No punctuation marks in the original.

Show me these parallel passages you are refering to.

[wordsower]

Sword,

You do not understand the spirit. When God told Adam and Even they would die the day they ate of the fruit did HE lie? No, they died that day--spiritually, they were separated from God and for that reason they realized they were naked.

God does not deal in time, Jesus told the theif he would be with Him in paradise that day and he was, 2 Peter shows that He descended to hell while in the grave also.

Jesus would not have told an outright lie about Lazarus and the rich man, parable or not, He spoke only truth and there is no other reason for the story to not be true.

Man is made up of three parts: Spirit, Soul and Body

1 Thessalonians 5:23 says, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

There is a difference between man's breath and spirit: "Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it." Isaiah 42:5

Destination After Death

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake." Philippians 1:21-24

"Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

[godrulz]

Until the resurrection at the end of the age when we receive glorified bodies, we have temporary 'tents' so we are not 'disembodied ghosts'.

Hades had a righteous and an unrighteous compartment. He emptied the righteous area and ascended to heaven. During the 3 days, the compartment was still occupied and Jesus went there. When He was addressing Mary after the resurrection, He was saying He was going to ascend and take paradise with Him...i.e. do not cling to me like I am staying on earth forever...I will send another Comforter, the Spirit to be with you. You are mixing concepts.

The story of Lazarus is not a didactic passage, but it contains truth content.

Sword: what is your religious or denominational background?

[Guest LCPGUY]

Until the resurrection at the end of the age when we receive glorified bodies, we have temporary 'tents' so we are not 'disembodied ghosts'.

Right on

2nd Cor: 5:1-9

Bro John

[ginakay]

great discussion and I certainly agree with those who are saying we DO go to the presence of the Lord, not soul sleep. In several passages Jesus said those who believe on him would never die! What did he mean? I believe the scriptures point to this...at death of the body a believer simply passes from consciousness in this life to a glorious consciousness in the eternal! Sure we will get our glorified bodies later--at the resurrection--but that is not to say we cannot have a conscious state without them. After all, the angels do.

[Guest mcm42]

I really don't care, but I must say sword of truth, you've changed my natural misconceptions about this issue.

Again I don't really care if I'm with the Lord in Paradise, or whatever, I know I will be with Him, at some point, and that's all that's worth fighting for to me.

Hey Sword of truth, keep up the study, they won't admit it but I think you've got something.

That point about Christ being paradise or (not yet being with the Lord) was an excellent point. :t:

[wordsower]

mcm42,

Believers were in Paradise awaiting the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, they couldn't be in the prescence of God until the proper payment had been made and their sins forgiven and covered by the blood. Sin separated man from God and only the perfect sacrifice of Jesus could restore that separation.

When Mary Magdalene saw Jesus (John 20:17) He told her not to hold on to Him as He had not returned to His Father yet.....then in verse 27 He tells Thomas to put his finger in His side.

He went to the Father, after seeing Mary Magdelene, placed the blood and returned so He was correct in telling the theif that He would be with Him that day in paradise because the theif couldn't enter heaven until after the blood was taken to heaven.

Study to show theyself approved, rightly dividing the Word of God.

[Guest LCPGUY]

He went to the Father, after seeing Mary Magdelene, placed the blood and returned so He was correct in telling the theif that He would be with Him that day in paradise because the theif couldn't enter heaven until after the blood was taken to heaven.

Huh?

Would you mind elaborating on the above wordsower. This is something entirely new to me. What verses talks about taking blood to heaven?

Thanx,

Bro John

[wordsower]

Sure, Bro John!

You have to do some study into the old testament sacrifices and the role the high priest played to fit all of the pieces, but the writer of Hebrews ties it together:

"Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12).

"For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us" (Heb. 9:24).

It was also fortold in Psalms

Psalm 9:12 says, "When He avenges blood, He remembers them; He does not forget the cry of the humble."

Blessings!

[Guest LCPGUY]

Thanx wordsower!

I'll pray and start studying what you posted.

Bro John