Where do we go when we die?

[Guest mcm42]

What you seemed to have overlooked is that all of this happened (Mary, and Thomas) 3 days after they had died! So even is Jesus, as you propose, went to God with the sacrifice between these two instances, it had still been 3 days since Christ had told the theif "this day". I think it's very possible that Christ said "I tell you this day, you will be with me in paradise"

That is not so far fetched, I don't think. I'm not sure that any of it holds any bearing on the subject at hand, because Christ has since gone to the father, and the thief would be the only person in his situation. We are not at all like the thief, because we know that Christ has ascended into heaven.

It think, at least on this issue sword has a point. If you don't agree with any of his beliefs, that does not discredit his study in every area, I personally feel he has somthing here with the placement of the comma.

[godrulz]

'I tell you this day' is awkward, redundant English. There is no precedent for this 'idiom' in Greek writing (cf. Verily, verily, I say unto you....). Most Greek scholars concur with 'today you will be with me...". This is the straightforward reading that is being twisted to support a preconceived theology that is not supported in other passages. Regardless, this is not a prooftext that will support or undermine either view on its own.

[Guest mcm42]

This is the straightforward reading that is being twisted to support a preconceived theology that is not supported in other passages. Regardless, this is not a prooftext that will support or undermine either view on its own.

it's interesting though, if that is the correct rendition, that we know Christ was not in Paradise "that day" with him. Redundant english happens a lot when Christ talks. I don't think it's being "twisted" it's a legitimate argument.

Anyway, all in all I agree it doesn't change anything on this issue!

God bless

[wordsower]

This is important:

You know when you are saved that Jesus will always be with you. David said, "Though I make my bed in hell, You are there"

The theif could not go past Paradise until after Jesus had gone to the Father, He didn't go to the Father until sometime between Mary Magdelene and Thomas, so the theif went to Paradise and Jesus was with him in spirit there.

If you don't believe that Jesus was with him during that time in paradise then He would have said, In 3 days I will be with you in heaven, as obviously the theif made it to heaven!

He was letting us know that something had to be done to get those believer's out of Paradise.

[godrulz]

Why could Jesus not have been in Paradise with the thief that day? It does not mean that He stayed there permanently. The thief died and went to Paradise (where else would he go as a new believer?). Jesus died and went to Paradise at some point for those 3 days supporting the natural reading of His statement. The problem is not with the punctuation, but with limited understanding and assumptions.

[Guest mcm42]

We know that jesus didn't go to "paradise" because Christ said to mary "I have not yet been to the father" I would hope paradise and being with the father are the same thing!

I don't see why you are all so set on Jesus being with the theif "that day". Can you not even conceive of the possibility that Jesus sad "I tell you this day, you will be with me in paradise"

I mean it doesn't effect any doctrine as far as I can see, I think your Sunday school notions are keeping you from seeing this as a possibility and that is very sad.

[wordsower]

We know that jesus didn't go to "paradise" because Christ said to mary "I have not yet been to the father" I would hope paradise and being with the father are the same thing!

Now I see the problem.

Paradise and being with God are not the same thing.

Sin separated us from God.

No one could be with God with sin.

Paradise was a place for believers awaiting the price to be paid so that they could be with God. Abraham's bosom is the same as Paradise. 2 Cor. 12 shows that these are separate.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus describes paradise. I personally believe it is the Garden of Eden because of Rev. 2:7 and because we are not told where it went.

Also, another interesting nugget. The cloud that Jesus ascended in is the same word used for "we have such a great cloud of witnesses" I believe the cloud that surrounded Him was the saints that had been stuck in Paradise, possibly.

[Guest mcm42]

Paradise was a place for believers awaiting the price to be paid so that they could be with God. Abraham's bosom is the same as Paradise. 2 Cor. 12 shows that these are separate.

i do not agree with this at this point... but it does make some sense, so I have no problem with it. I do not believe in "abraham's bosom" as you have described it...

2 corinthians 12 describes the "third heaven" as paradise. I believe that the 1st "heaven" is the sky (earths immediate atmosphere where airplanes fly) the 2nd "heaven" is the universe (where galaxies reside and where Space ships fly) and the 3rd "heaven" where God Almighty resides, where elijah, and Christ himself was caught up to.

So I do not see Paradise, as separate from the third heaven where God resides, I believe they are one in the same... that is my understanding.

[salt and light]

Sword of Truth,

Not to sound harsh,or mean of course, but you do know that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not christian right? Well, I'm not saying that you aren't a christian, because who am I to judge anybody? But, you Seventh Day Adventists believe in a lot of the things that the JW'S believe, like soul sleep,which is not scriptual, soul annilhilation which is not scriptual, and I guess you believe that the Rich man and Lazarus was just a made up story. Do you think that the multitudes of christians that are in heaven right now are actually sleeping? I've read many storys of people who had hellish near death experiences,and I would be gullible if I said that they were ALL made up storys. Did you ever hear of Dr. Maurice Rawlings, a cardiologist who wrote a book called, "To Hell and Back"? If not, you should. Only the bodys of saved and unsaved people sleep in the grave. I believe you are saved, but just mixed up.

[wordsower]

Not sure but maybe Paradise was taken up to heaven when Jesus ascended, up to that point they were not the same place. Found these, maybe they help:

In Matthew 23:43, Jesus says, "Amen I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise." Paradise, here, refers to Abraham's bosom (compare Luke 16:22), the abode of the spirits of the blessed dead prior to the atoning death and resurrection of Christ. Until the atonement, the "way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest" (Hebrews 9:8).

Thus the spirit of the repentant criminal went, upon death, to Abraham's bosom. The spirit of Jesus went there too since, "He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth" (Ephesians 4:9). Thus the promise made on Calvary, "today you will be with Me in paradise", was fulfilled. Subsequently, on Sunday morning, the resurrected Christ was in the process of completing the atonement when He said to Mary, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father