Is lying ever the right thing to do?

[Guest LadyC]

i'm capable!!!!

i'm capable of packing his lunch, making his coffee, washing his clothes, fixing his dinner, and putting fresh sheets on the bed...

i'm just equally as capable of NOT doing all those things

he's got it good.... he really does....

[Guest LadyC]

But James saying that Rahab is justified by works by telling a lie and hiding the men is just weird

It doesn't say that...

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

He is talking about how she helped them....

what she said to the men hunting for them is not mentioned..

perhaps it was her sinful lifestyle as a prostitute she was being "justified" for..

it was her FAITH that justified her, not her sinful life as a prostitute. that's what she was saved from.

[tah]

LadyC your are without a doubt a better woman than I am...

sorry..I knew what I meant...

I am saying the lying from Joshua was inconsequential in James..

[Guest LadyC]

LOL, why would you say that? i'm no better of a woman than anyone else.... well, maybe SOME people!

ok i'm getting goofy. i need FOOD. that will bring me back down to earth.

yeah, i figured you knew what ya meant, i just wanted to make sure everyone else did too

[Richard_yaash]

But the problem is James said Rahab is justified by WORKS.

How?

How many here have had their life threatened?

How many here have had their families lives threatened?

How many here have faced a situation in which it would cost innocents their lives?

For most of us, the answers to those questions is no. For some of us, one, perhaps two of the questions on the outside the answer is yes. Until you have been placed and faced such a situation, I would be careful of how you answer.

And yes, I have faced one or more of those questions. I do not care with regard to my own life, however am I not responsible for the lives of my family? If the boogey monster came knocking upon my door, seeking to harm one of you here, should I turn you over? Should I reveal the whereabouts of a person to an 'evil man' because that 'evil man' asked me and "I can't tell a lie"?

Suppose that I was to ask one of those amoung us a direct question: Hey you, John Doe, what is your phone number? Would you answer me?

If someone approached you and you could feel 'evil' radiating from this 'man' and he asked you a direct question, where does your daughter live, what is her full name, her SS#, her address and phone number, would you give it to him? According to some that I have heard speak upon this topic (I am not referring to anyone here), omission is also a lie. I am not talking about someone mentioning your daughter and you not volunteering her info. I am talking about being evasive to a direct question.

How many here would give their daughters full info to this man that they simply 'felt' evil from and had no positive way of knowing that his intentions were one way or the other?

I recently received a phone call from someone, they directly asked me for information of another person. Stating, that this person used me as a reference and they simply needed to get ahold of that person. Does the story sound fishy to anyone? I simply stated that I did not know their address or phone number, quite honestly, for I did not know the info by heart. I told them the number was upon my cell phone. They did not directly ask me if I had my cell phone handy, truth be known, I was speaking on it.

For those who truly believe that it is 'God's' duty to protect everyone, let's put it to the test and see if you truly believe that. If you do, all you have to do is publish your info in full upon the web somewhere. How many are willing to publish all their info upon the web?

If not, why not? Perhaps Matthew 10:16 comes to mind?

In Deuteronomy chapter 19, we see there are to be set aside three cities as safehavens. Why?

How many witnesses are required to convict a man in Deuteronomy 19?

In Numbers 35, the assembly (equivalent of the church) was to protect someone, not to hand them over, and this was for possible cause. Yes, there are many verses that deal with 'God's' protection.

Consider James chapter 2: We live by faith, does everyone agree? It is by faith that we are justified, does everyone agree? Now consider what James is telling us: Faith, without action is dead. It is as nothing. In fact, it is not faith at all.

Paul further writes in Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God

[Richard_yaash]

it was her FAITH that justified her

Exactly.

[OneLight]

I've often wondered what I would do if the time ever came where my family would be killed if I answered the question truthfully. The only example that makes me tremble in my boots is if the question was, "Are you a Christian?" If I answered yes, my family would die, along with me. Would I deny my Lord for this reason? My heart wants to say "Yes, I believe in Jesus!" and know that Christ will honor my answer. But, what if they all are not Christians? Would I then say "No." and deny the Lord who saved me? Peter denied Christ three times, but that was before He gave His life for Him.

Just something that has always been in the back of my mind ...

[Guest LadyC]

onelight...

if YOU were asked if YOU were a christian, that doesn't necessarily mean that THEY (your family) would die with you. however, they'd sure have to watch you die, and that would bite the big one.

dissect that though.... if they are christians, they would hopefully be willing to die for Christ as well. if they were NOT christians, the last thing you would be doing for them is witnessing to the fact that you are willing to die for Him, and that may be all they need to make that split second decision to accept Christ before they die.

i can think of many things i would be willing to lie about, but that's just not one of them... even if it meant my family was going to die.

[Richard_yaash]

But the contradiction is that James said it wasn't by faith only, but by works.

Why did she do the 'work'?

Here is the original OT passage.

Joshua 2:1-8

<snip>

Now read at least one verse further.

And she goes on to make a professon of faith, but she could not have hid them and gotten them out safely without lying, and James said she was justified by works.

She first believed. She then protected the innocent because she feared 'God' due to the reports she had heard of the display of His mighty hand.

If she is justified by works in spite of the lie, then when is it ok to lie, and when is it not ok to lie?

I understand your POV in this as well as your question. What is the 'commandment'? The commandment is do not bear false witness against they neighbor. Did Rahab bear false witness against someone? No. She didn't have the NT.

Consider in this if you will, Deuteronomy 19:16-20.

In the scenarios that I laid out, would you have me to hand over one of your loved ones unto someone with intent to kill? No, you would be glad that I did not. And I would not, for I fear YHVH and I would be just as guilty for the bloodshed as those whom perpetrated the act.

What does the name Jacob mean? How did Jacob secure the birthright?

If someone came to my house, and I was instructed to protect that person through misleading those in seeking to harm them, would you judge me as evil and as a liar?

[Richard_yaash]

BTW: Lady C, and anyone else of whom this is applicable:

I applaud and commend your protection of your children.