Function of the Law in Salvation

[refugepsa91]

topic opened...thanks for the reminder Pilgrim7....

Opened with a warning....if this thread is reported again for "getting personal" with innuendos or insults...I'm closing this it permanently...

[tsth]

Thank you refugepsa91. You do a good job!

I'm glad to see this open again.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[hr.jr.]

I would really think that you are the one who is arrogant.

It is the person who thinks he can assign values to my position that I never espoused, who refuses to actually read what I said, who wants to put the lie in my mouth so he can argue against it, is the one practicing arroagance.

I simply pointed out the cross did none of those.

I never said the cross did those things. I have already said that the "work of cross" was not meant be understood as meaning that it was the literal cross that did those things. It is simply a convenient phrase I use identify a particular work of Christ on the cross. Like I said, you don't have a clue and you refuse to admit that you had me pegged wrong. Maybe, if you would actually read what has been written instead of what you THINK I am saying, then I might find it possible to have an intelligent dialoge with you, but I am not holding out for that.

Since names have begun to be called. keep in mind who started the childish name calling.

I a woman goes out and sell her body on the street, and I say she is a harlot, I am not calling her names. That is what she is.

If a man drinks himself under the table 5 nights a week and I say he is a drunkard I am not calling him names; that is what he is.

When you refuse to admit that you have my arguments pegged wrong and cannot swallow your pride to admit it, that is arrogance, and it is not "name calling" to say so. You insist upon assigning values to my position that I did not espouse did not even imply and have repeatedly sought to clarify my position to no avail. You are the one, who for some reason, just can't let it go. Like I said, get over yourself.

I based my conclusion on what you wrote. I have no idea what you think, I only know what you write. The fact you call me arrogant does not make it so. I have no pride to swallow. It amazes me that your defense of your argument evolved from the initial post that brought my differing opinion. Go back to the beginning and read the posts that started the exchange. Your usage of "the cross" was incorrect.

In keeping with the instructions of the moderator, I will end this quibbling at the "personal level."

[Reuben Hick]

Man I have missed out on one heck of a food fight.

This reminds me of the glory days when Zane Hodges and John MacArthur were duking it out over the matter of Lordship.

It is interesting to see this argument presented in terms that has nothing to do with the primary function of man - and that is to being glory to God.

On the one hand we have works for the sake of doing works, and on the other raw antinomianism. Though I tend to lean on the works side, I'm a lazy man and instead of forcing myself to do some laundry list of righteous works, I focus more on advoiding sin and the tempation to sin. The cool thing about sanctification and being perfected is that one is naturally drawn to doing works that are pleasing to God, so from all outward appearances it seems like the one engaged in these works is bound to the tyranny of works-salvation, when in reality the servant delights in serving His master.

It almost always seems to be the free will envangelist who struggles the most with holiness and keeping God's commandments, my best guess is that if man is responsible for his own faith and belief, God steps out of the way and lets man do his own sanctification and perfection too. This all seems to fit in the template of "each man does what is right in his own eyes" or as the jewlery marketer branded it "WWJD".

As for me, I am a world class screw-up when it comes to that, I'll leave the work of sanctification and perfection up to the Expert. At least I will know that the job is being performed right.

[Pilgrim7]

Letter versus Spirit #9

The 9th Commandment is deals with false witness against others, here again, a foundational principle of righteousness, the forbidding of basic unrighteousness.

The Letter of the Law- - The 9th Commandment

Exo 20:16

Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The 9th Commandment forbids all false communication, but especially that which would injure injure the reputation of another. Here again, there is no mention, or delineation of any positive communication. Thus only the sin is identified, not the positive aspect of righteousness in communication.

The Spirit of the Law

Now Jesus, in the 'Spirit of the law', as part of the 'New Covenant' experience of writing Gods laws in our hearts, expands this Commandment, as we have previously seen, to cover all our communication. Always speak the truth in love and don

[tsth]

As usual the 'Spirit of the Law' always deals with the condition of the heart, which determines whether one's actions will be sinful, contrary to God's will, or righteous and good, thus in harmony with and obedient to God's will, especially the 'Ten Commandments, but extending to all Scripture. So when God says that the Christian is a 'completely New Creature', it would seem that He means it.

Absolutely Dennis!!!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[BlindSeeker]

Acts 13:38-41 38 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: 41 "'Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.'"

Acts 15:5-11 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Acts 15:19-20 19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Romans 3:19-28 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 6:14-18 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-- whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 7:4-6 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 10:1-4 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Romans 13:8-10 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 2:15-16 15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19-21 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3:10-14 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:23-26 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 2:13-16 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

1 Timothy 1:8-12 8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law {9 Or that the law} is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-- and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. 12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

Hebrews 7:18-22 8 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest forever.'" 22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

The "Law of Moses" was both moral and ceremonial, which was full of symbolism of the Passion of Christ. The ceremonial part was merely prophetic action which was to be performed by the priest, who likewise merely function in their stead as prophetic examples of He who would come and offer the true sacrifice for our atonement. But once Christ came, the prophetic "types and shadows" ceased to be required and accepted by God.

After Christ's death when the Jews continued to offer their sacrificial lambs to God they became guilty of crucifying Christ afresh . . . and so did anyone whose faith continued not in the sacrifice of Christ and chose to return again to that part of the Law. Having fulfilled its function (as intended by God) the ceremonial part ceased. But that which is "perfect, converting the soul," which the Psalmist petitioned of God to be granted unto him "graciously" has not ceased. This shows there is no conflict between the moral part of the Law, which is perfect and able to convert the soul and God's grace.

Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul . . .

Ps 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me Thy law graciously.

God clearly address His commandments and specifically the 9th in Revelations -

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city

.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and

whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

.

I find these words to be very clear and simple speech. Regardless how one may wish to interpret what Luke, Paul and whoever the author of Hebrews may have meant in their reference to

[BlindSeeker]

Cobalt1959 had posted the following scriptures apparently as another scriptural support for us not being required to keep the commandments of God. Interesting . . . since this is actually an exhortation (a fearful warning) about the need of us completing all which God requires of us and the necessity of still keeping the 4th commandment.

1. Therefore, since the promise of entering His rest

<katapausis>

still stands, let us

be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it

.

2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

3 Now we who have believed enter that rest

<katapausis>

, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter My rest

<katapausis>

.'" And yet His work has been finished since the creation of the world.

4 For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested

<katapauo>

from all His work."

5 And again in the passage above He says, "They shall never enter My rest

<katapausis>

."

6 It still remains that some will enter that rest

<katapausis>

, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.

7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later He spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

8 For if Joshua had given them rest

<katapauo>

, God would not have spoken later about another day.

9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest

<sabbatismos>

for the people of God.

There are three different Greek words that have been translated

[Pilgrim7]

Letter versus Spirit #10

The 10th Commandment deals with the 'root of all sin', the carnal, selfish, self absorbed, sinful heart. Out of the heart proceed all the 'issues of life'. This is what needs to be changed in conversion. Only those with a 'new heart', a 'Spirit filled' heart will be able to escape the outward sins as defined in the 'Ten Commandments' as well as the myriad requirements of the 'New Testament'.

The Letter of the Law- - The 10th Commandment

Exo 20:16

Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet

(#2530- desire for oneself)

thy neighbor

[refugepsa91]

And on that note...this thread is closed. I think I was quite fair in allowing the discussion to go on...but it is against our Statement of Faith.

From Worthy's Steward, George:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=24770

From Worthy's Statement of Faith:

We believe that salvation is a gift received by faith alone, in Messiah alone, and is expressed in the individual