UK - ban on under 30s buying booze without ID

[nebula]

Do you see the parallel?

No.

What did you do before there was a programme to compare essays to ones that had already gone through the system? Perhaps that needs to be re-visited?

No, because it didn't work! - that's why we are using turnitin.com.

Cheating and other forms of plagiarism have been found to be a significant problem in the college. Often times, cheating has been suspected (like when a student who has been producing "D" quality work suddenly turns in an "A" or "B" quality paper - ummm - not!), but it cannot be proven. This is a more sure way of catching those that steal others' work and claim it as their own.

Plus, this forces students to turn their papers in on time . . . yes there are a significant number each semester who have "computer problems" right as they are trying to print out their lab report just before they are ready to leave for class.

Yeah, computer problems, my foot!

And by the way - I don't know about you, but I really don't like the idea of passing cheaters into the nursing program....

How would you like to be cared for by a nurse who passed the program via cheating?

It's a strange mentality that says "some students plagiarise others' work, therefore we'll mistrust them all automatically.

Well, with the mentality you propose, I don't have to be in the room with the students all the time when they take a test because I should assume they are all honest enough to not share answers with each other while I'm out of the room.

Buck, if your mentality is to trust everyone without question - please stay away from the Inner City at night, OK?

[buckthesystem]

I can't help thinking that you are burying your head in the sand. ID cards ARE evil. You'll find out in 2011. Don't take my word for anything, do go to the link for a start, then do some more research (there certainly is no shortage of literature around telling us that this crazy scheme is an incredibly expensive "white elephant"). A "solution" to a problem that nobody can identify, honestly after a lot of reading I really don't know what problem these silly bureaucrats are trying to solve with this sinister scheme. It will cost you an absolute fortune and you and the rest of the population will gain absolutely nothing - nothing that is except a lot of aggro. in your life and the certain knowledge that your life isn't your own any more, or God's for that matter, it has been nationalised and now belongs to the UK government - or rather the UK bureaucracy. You will have given it to them and paid dearly for the privilege.

Also it would be a good idea to do some reading about totalitarian regimes of the 20th century (a common theme was gun control and id cards).

However, it is your choice to capitulate, but don't expect anyone else to "get their id card and be on the database" just because you think it's a good idea.

This is nothing but scaremongering and mud-slinging. Thanks for labelling me ignorant and complacent and yet again failing to respond to anything I said.

David, HOW did you arrive at the conclusion that this is "scaremongering and mudslinging"? I only stated facts, facts - not just my opinion.

And "labelling you ignorant and complacent" - no! I didn't! I did claim that you have deliberately failed to delve into the facts and motives behind the scheme. This is an assumption on my part, but an assumption based on the idea that if you had researched the subject you probably wouldn't think it was such a good idea.

You are right about one thing though: I did fail to respond to what you said. So here goes: To the best of my knowledge, that is as of the last I read about it, the UK gov't is NOT. taking into account witnesses in court. The home office minister reckons that "the cost to do so would make the risk acceptable", but they ARE (and this I find really strange taking into account the former statement) taking into account - or "making special provisions for" celebrities and MPs registered on the NIR. So if you are escaping a violent domestic relationship, or even dodging that annoying brother in law, and you are "registered on the NIR", tough luck for you. And the home office have stated that any of the information on the NIR can and will be sold to "offset costs".

Now I don't see how you can compare the Nazi "registration or ID cards" with the autobahns. At the time they also brought in other laws - one being that Jewish people had to surrender all their pets to "the government" for destruction. By the same token are you also saying that UK should introduce a similar law to this one?

To see how really sinister it was (and there is no reason to suppose that things will not end up like this - afterall mankind has not changed), have a look at this link:

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/registratio...gistration.html

Now do you want your country to end up like this? You have a "head start", Tony Blair has already got his "gun control"!

Honestly I am not getting at you personally, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion and you are a brother in Christ, it is just that I find the idea of an ID card/registration scheme particularly distasteful, I think it is unGodly and tries to make the people officially belong to their government, not to God, so I am not dis'ing you, I am dis'ing ID cards.

[Burning_Ember]

I worked at a Liqour store for a while. Company policy was if someone so much as looked under thirty, they get carded. Legal Drinking age in Alberta (Province in Western Canada) is 18. Even with that policy in place you still had cases every week where the government would send in people that were under 25, over 18 (generally) to go buy liqour. If we didn't card 'em, the fines to myself and the company combined go into the thousands of dollars. If you are in a group of people, and one person was buying, EVERYONE has to show their ID, no questions. Exceptions generally being along the line of people bringing their kids in.

Another note on people buying in groups, is they would often try use that very defense to get by cashiers. Being, you would have 2-3 people, 1-2 being over the age (still young) and another probably under-age. Then you'd hear the good old line....

Them: "Now, what if I was a parent here with my son/daughter that was five, would I still not be able to buy, even though he/she is under 18 and without an ID?"

Me: "Yes. However, unless you can somehow prove to me that you are the the parent/legal guardian of this person, who is at best 4/5ths of your age, you being at the oldest 23, then I' not selling it to you."

Them: *Pouty Response*

Me: "If you want, I can call the manager down and they'll tell you the exact same thing in different words..."

And sometimes they would call the manager, I would practice my *I'm-not-really-smug-about-this-I'm-just-following-policy-innocent-look*

Even if you're obviously 23 or so, and you come in to buy liqour with no ID, no sale. You would then get these peoples friends, along with people in groups minus the underage person going out the door and coming back in and attempting to buy the same liqour the other person just tried to buy. I would even leave the alcohol they tried to buy at the 'till by the side, so when someone came in and asked "I'll buy that" (usually no more than 5 minutes later,) I can say...

Me: "You sure you aren't buying this for someone else?" Which will followed by...

Them: "Why, golly-gee, no sir! I was just attempting to make a good old fashioned alcohol purchase so I may enjoy it strictly in the privacy of my own home by myself!"

Me: "Additionally Nixon was not a crook, and you are CERTAINLY not lying... Now get outa' here. I can't sell to you."

Generally people are less combative the second time around, because they know its a lost battle. They whine more intently, but the steely eye and swift UPC swiping cashier always has the upper hand.

Then you would get people who look borderline 30, maybe a little older, and generally card them. The pattern favoured the positive responses from females and negatives from males.

Me: "Ma'am, I'll need to see your ID."

Her: "Do I really look under 25? You're so sweet!"

Her Female Friend: "You should kiss him for that!"

Me: "_{Well technically you look under 30 but-} *cough* Really It's just company policy that I have to enforce."

Her: You're such a darling, are you sure you aren't just pulling my leg?

Me: "Really, I'm just doing job." *nods* " Have a great day, ladies."

With guys, it went more like this.

Me: "I need to see your ID, please."

Him: "Uh, what?"

Me: "I need to see your ID before I can sell this to you."

Him: "I'm clearly over 25."

Me: "Yes, but you look 30 or under, so I still gotta see your ID."

Him: "I can't believe you're harassing me like this... I have a mind to file a complaint with your manager." *narrows eyes*

Me: *Hands him his purchase* "Have a good day!"

Him: "Yeah, whatever."

Trying to explain to a guy that its a compliment is a lost battle. On occassion I would jokingly ask for little kids ID's who were with their parents. All Seniors also get a 5 percent discount. Asking a senior for ID generally resulted in more flattery and "Aw shucks!" than asking women.

This is my general experiences working at a large local chain of liqour stores. Hope you liked.

[David of Derby]

Buck, why are you slinging the Nazi label about? What's so evil about a register of citizens? I don't like the database being sold to third parties very much but we already have that. The electoral roll is sold to anyone that wants it anyway, there isn't a lot of info spammers don't have access to.

I personally know someone who fled a violent relationship and she was kept off the electoral roll for years to make it harder for the man to find her. If the same thing doesn't happen with the ID cards there's always the police. They're already involved in protecting victims of domestic abuse and I'm fairly certain measures can and will be taken to either prevent abusive spouses getting access to the info or warning them of the consequences for tracking down the fleeing spouse. Even if not I don't how that makes the UK as bad as the Nazis. No one is suggesting people of specific ethnic groups will be herded into death camps or invading most of Europe.

[ladypeartree]

If someone comes to my home and wishes to enter in order to read the electricity meter or whatever I have a right ( and I use it ) to ask for id before I let them in...does that make me a nazi

If I go to college and I am asked to move to a different classroom for the one I normally use I have a right to ask for id from the person who tells me to move ( this has actually prevented an attempted abduction of a young female student ) ..does that make me wrong

If you live near a small supermarket ( they have them all over the place ) and have to deal with the meance of under age kids drinking in the doorways and all the appaling behaviour that then goes with it then you too would be much happier and in less danger if the shop keepers actually DID ask for id from these kids before selling them alcohol ...and in a recent police survey on these shops 95% of the shop keepers who sold alcohol to children under the age of 16 were muslim and should not have been selling the stuff anyway...they claimed in most cases that it was a one off mistake even when it was the fourth or fifth time they had been caught

If or when parent get back to good old fashioned parenting and bring children up to repesct the law and other people then maybe we wouldnt need such systems but I doubt it will work whilst greedy shop keepers dont care who they hurt as long as they make a profit....I remember a local shop keeper that was happy to sell single cigarettes to children in school uniform that were OBVIOUSLY well under the legal age since it gave her a much higher profit margin that selling whole packs of them ( about 75% more ) ..who protected the children for her

[buckthesystem]

If someone comes to my home and wishes to enter in order to read the electricity meter or whatever I have a right ( and I use it ) to ask for id before I let them in...does that make me a nazi

If I go to college and I am asked to move to a different classroom for the one I normally use I have a right to ask for id from the person who tells me to move ( this has actually prevented an attempted abduction of a young female student ) ..does that make me wrong

If you live near a small supermarket ( they have them all over the place ) and have to deal with the meance of under age kids drinking in the doorways and all the appaling behaviour that then goes with it then you too would be much happier and in less danger if the shop keepers actually DID ask for id from these kids before selling them alcohol ...and in a recent police survey on these shops 95% of the shop keepers who sold alcohol to children under the age of 16 were muslim and should not have been selling the stuff anyway...they claimed in most cases that it was a one off mistake even when it was the fourth or fifth time they had been caught

If or when parent get back to good old fashioned parenting and bring children up to repesct the law and other people then maybe we wouldnt need such systems but I doubt it will work whilst greedy shop keepers dont care who they hurt as long as they make a profit....I remember a local shop keeper that was happy to sell single cigarettes to children in school uniform that were OBVIOUSLY well under the legal age since it gave her a much higher profit margin that selling whole packs of them ( about 75% more ) ..who protected the children for her

I can't believe the attitude of some of you people. You must live in a terrible world where you suspect every single person you come across of having evil plans, whether they be kidnapping someone or drinking alcohol when they are (shock horror) only 29, and then they might be buying alcohol for their 17 year old friend, and then supplying single cigarettes to school children, and then go on and do some - now this has got to be the worst crime ever = fly tipping! And you know the worst thing of all, you genuinely believe that by paying bucketloads of money to the government for them to have 51 (I think it is 51, it might be more) separate pieces of personal information about every person in the country on a database and share it with every other government department and sell it to every private company who can pay, and will be added to (everything that you ever do) for the rest of the person's life and even x years after their death (I can't remember the number of years after death that the information is held for) will stop these peoples' evil intentions.

Of course if everybody carried an ID card, and was made to produce it all the time, there would be no more underage drinking (all people under the age of 30 wouldn't be able to drink, 30 so far, then maybe 40, and after a decade or so "anybody at all - after all they could look 85, but have lead a very stressful life and really be 16) and no more kidnapping - in fact no more crime of any description (because the criminals - or "suspects" - that's about 65 million suspects in UK alone) would be too afraid of "getting caught" well after the act because their government registration/ID card would miraculously "dob them in". And there would be no more smoking. An idyllic society, no freedom, no individuality, no more of this "I belong to God" business, we'll soon get rid of that, after all in this tightly controlled society, people should and will worship government, just like any other good totalitarian state.

LadyP don't you think that if schoolchildren really want cigarettes, they can steal them out of Mum's handbag or Dad's workbag? Why would kids have to buy things like alcohol and cigarettes when it seems that more and more often it is their parents who are supplying them anyway. I know of one solo mother who has three children (to three different fathers btw). The oldest is a girl who has just turned seven and two boys aged one and two. The mother herself is only 21. Quite often the mother will pay the girl in cigarettes to look after the boys, or give her a bottle of beer for doing the dishes for a week. Now get this: The solo mother in question gets the beer and cigarettes by stealing them from her own parents because "you can't afford to buy these things on a solo mother's benefit.

[buckthesystem]

Buck, why are you slinging the Nazi label about? What's so evil about a register of citizens? I don't like the database being sold to third parties very much but we already have that. The electoral roll is sold to anyone that wants it anyway, there isn't a lot of info spammers don't have access to.

I personally know someone who fled a violent relationship and she was kept off the electoral roll for years to make it harder for the man to find her. If the same thing doesn't happen with the ID cards there's always the police. They're already involved in protecting victims of domestic abuse and I'm fairly certain measures can and will be taken to either prevent abusive spouses getting access to the info or warning them of the consequences for tracking down the fleeing spouse. Even if not I don't how that makes the UK as bad as the Nazis. No one is suggesting people of specific ethnic groups will be herded into death camps or invading most of Europe.

David, here's a copy of the ID card/NIR Bill. Please, please read it, don't assume anything until you've checked it with the Bill details. I'm pretty sure you will be quite horrified.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...009/2006009.htm

And you will find that it is rather more than just a "register of citizens".

Now as for "someone who fled a violent relationship ......." I've looked into any information on the scheme that I can find and it looks to me (not 100% certain though) that there will be no particular provision for something like this. And as for "there's always the police": Are you serious?

And to your "..... groups herded into death camps" remark: Yeah, well I'm sure that someone in Nazi Germany at the very beginning probably said that too. It doesn't have to be a specific ethnic group (after all "the Jews" weren't exactly "only" a specific ethnic group, the grouping was more for the religion of Judaism). Now I can see a future in Europe (I don't think I'm exaggerating if I say that UK is heading that way already) where Christians will be a despised minority, and "oh, how convenient, some people who just loved the idea of id cards have ensured that all Christians have ID cards with a big red "C" on them and they are all registered on the NIR, so ........

[nebula]

I can't believe the attitude of some of you people. You must live in a terrible world where you suspect every single person you come across of having evil plans,

Are you saying we should trust complete strangers into our homes without verifying their honesty, yet we should never trust a words and intentions of government officials?

[David of Derby]

David, here's a copy of the ID card/NIR Bill. Please, please read it, don't assume anything until you've checked it with the Bill details. I'm pretty sure you will be quite horrified.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...009/2006009.htm

And you will find that it is rather more than just a "register of citizens".

Now as for "someone who fled a violent relationship ......." I've looked into any information on the scheme that I can find and it looks to me (not 100% certain though) that there will be no particular provision for something like this. And as for "there's always the police": Are you serious?

And to your "..... groups herded into death camps" remark: Yeah, well I'm sure that someone in Nazi Germany at the very beginning probably said that too. It doesn't have to be a specific ethnic group (after all "the Jews" weren't exactly "only" a specific ethnic group, the grouping was more for the religion of Judaism). Now I can see a future in Europe (I don't think I'm exaggerating if I say that UK is heading that way already) where Christians will be a despised minority, and "oh, how convenient, some people who just loved the idea of id cards have ensured that all Christians have ID cards with a big red "C" on them and they are all registered on the NIR, so ........

You're obviously convinced we're all Nazis and that carrying proof of identity is some kind of moral outrage so I see no point continuing the argument.

[Guest LadyC]

I can't believe the attitude of some of you people. You must live in a terrible world where you suspect every single person you come across of having evil plans,

that's ok, most of us people can't believe the attitude you have either. you've started many ID threads over the years, and it's always the same. you don't want criminals to be identifiable. you don't want murder victims to be identifiable. you are so intent on the freedom of anonymity that you could care less about personal safety. i just don't get it. it makes no sense at all to me.

listen, there is real evil in the world today, and it will continue getting worse until Christ returns. for NOW, satan is the ruler of this world. i think even God would count it as foolishness to not prepare and protect ourselves against that evil.