Do you have to be baptized to go to Heaven?

[bison.78]

What about REPENTANCE? Does God do that for us also? Is that a "work"? God forbid. Without repentance, belief in the Savior will not save you. This is the first step in the plan of salvation. (and which, by the way, is not found in the clever ABC plan of salvation)

Repentance is simply a response to the gospel. Repentance simply means to "turn around." Repentance can occur before or after one is saved. It should be an every day thing.

Repentance is a daily attitude of the heart. None of us are sinless and perfect, and we are constantly (or should be) repenting of sins in our lives along the process of sanctification.

Question: If a person confesses with their mouth and believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord, yet never gets around to repenting from their sin, is that person saved?

[Guest shiloh357]

What about REPENTANCE? Does God do that for us also? Is that a "work"? God forbid. Without repentance, belief in the Savior will not save you. This is the first step in the plan of salvation. (and which, by the way, is not found in the clever ABC plan of salvation)

Repentance is simply a response to the gospel. Repentance simply means to "turn around." Repentance can occur before or after one is saved. It should be an every day thing.

Repentance is a daily attitude of the heart. None of us are sinless and perfect, and we are constantly (or should be) repenting of sins in our lives along the process of sanctification.

Question: If a person confesses with their mouth and believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord, yet never gets around to repenting from their sin, is that person saved?

It is unlikely scenario on the grounds that a person who is truly born again, has a new nature and a new heart. He or she has a new set of desires placed in him or her by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Repentance is not a prayer or a vow. Repentance is an action. One can verbally "repent," at the moment they accept Christ, but the litmus test as to whether or not they are born again is borne out in their life subsequent to salvation. No one is expected to live in a season of repentance prior to becoming a Christian. Repentence is something demonstrated over time.

True repentance is lived out, not simply declared verbally, so if a person continues to live in sin AFTER professing Christ, then it would appear that their initial profession and verbal declaration of repentance were not genuine.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, this is the post (what you claim to be proof texting) I was asking you to expose if you found it to be false, not the other.Rick, Baptism is the means by which Christ's Blood is applied to our lives....here's scripture to prove it:

In the OT, the sins of the people could not be cancelled out, or remitted, without a sacrifice/ offering...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Which, as we know, typifies Christ offering Himself for our sins. What is the purpose of Christ's Blood?

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That being said, how can we apply this Blood that remits sin to our lives on a pragmatic level?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ( for what purpose?) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism and Belief in Christ go hand in hand.....you can't have one without the other.

I believe the same point was made by guitarman, if I am reitterating, I apologize.

What you are doing is grabbing verses that are not parallel, that do not occur in like contexts and are not addressing like issues and stringing them together to make the Bible appear to support your premise.

The following is an accurate definition of prooftexting:

Prooftext, prooftexting

A prooftext is a verse or short passage from the Bible used by someone as part of his proof for a doctrinal belief he wishes to substantiate to others. However, since verses and passages may rely extensively on the context in which they appear for correct interpretation, pulling these out of their context and having them stand alone in a "proof" can, at times, be very misleading. In addition, a set of such prooftexts can completely ignore other passages which, if added to the mix, might well lead to an entirely different conclusion. Someone who relies strongly only on a list of prooftexts in order to make a doctrinal argument may have a very weak case for his argument. Noting that a religious teacher relies heavily just on prooftexting is viewed in theological circles as a very negative evaluation. Taken from Biblestudy.org

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem is that you cannot guarantee that EVERYONE will have access to immersion in water immediately after being saved. The "what if" scenarios simply point out a fatal flaw in what you THINK the Bible teaches. The truth is that the Bible does not teach that baptism in a necessary element in salvation.

No one can guarantee anything but God...however, I don't see a fatal flaw in the scriptures presented. You are refuting my points, but there is no scripture to show otherwise.

I am just pointing out that since it is possible for someone to be excluded from salvation by not have a necessary element, and the fact that they could die before being able to appropriate such element, it shows the error in your theology. Salvation is only for those lucky enough to get baptized. If they die before getting access to water, sorry Charlie.

The problem is that by saying baptism is NECESSARY for salvation, you have removed the possiblity of any exceptions. You have no grounds to say that God will find another way for them to be saved outside of what is "necessary." Essentially, you paint yourself into a corner with type of argument.

Following that logic a bit further, why bring up salvation at all if they were already saved? It would seem equally unnecessary to bring up salvation to someone who is already saved. Sorry, but that logic doesn't hold water.

No. He wasnt telling them how to get saved, rather he was letting them know that they were not subject to neither circumcision nor the law..... I've explained that already.

yes, but that is beside the point. The point I am making is that you cannot claim that baptism was unnecessary to discuss with those who were already baptized. Whether he is telling them how to get saved or not, is irrelevant. My point is that if baptism is unecessary to bring up with those who are already baptized as you previously indicated, then it would also follow that salvation would be equally as unecessary to discuss with those already saved. I am simply showing the erroneous, short-sighted logic you employed. IN every major discussion of salvation, justification, being born again, no mention is ever made of immersion into water as being a necessary element to those things.

I never said salvation was a "process". When I brought up repentance, I was making the point that we do have to do something more than just believe.

By adding to the gospel, you hvae inadvertantly turned it into a process. Faith in Jesus is not enough. By needing to baptized, Jesus is less than sufficient. By having to depend and place trust in baptism to ensure your salvation, you and Jesus become co-saviors. Suddenly the savlation is no longer a work of God but a synthesis of you and Him. Sorry, but God does not share His glory with anyone.

This is a moot point. I was making a point about baptism, not whether the Law is equated with circumcision or not.

I know, I was just correcting your understanding of what they were really arguing about.

[Rick-Parker]

Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!"

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Don`t you even fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong."

He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He said to him, "Most assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (WEB)

Does this answer you question? There is an exception, isn't there. IMO, this destroys any stand that baptism is required for salvation and remission of sin. But, I know it won't because no one is going to shange their stand on this issue. No matter how much proof is provided.

[Guest locuveritas]

Can one enter into heaven with sin?? So if you are saying that one does not have to be baptized in order to go to heaven, then how is their sin remitted. Sins are remitted when one is baptized, fully emersed in water with the name of Jesus applied. We are buried in baptism and our sins are washed away. The Devil believes and trembles...is he saved....no.

No, it is the blood of Jesus alone and His finished work on the cross alone that brings remission of sins. Our faith should be in Christ, not in baptism.

Shiloh, what is needed on our part for salvation to be imparted unto us? Is it, as you say, just faith alone?

If salvation were dependent on anything outside of grace through faith, salvation would not be available to all. What I mean is, if God said something like, "In order to be saved, you must believe in Jesus AND have purple tennis shoes," there would be someone on earth who did not have access to purple tennis shoes. Someone would get left out.

It is the same with baptism... If baptism is NECESSARY for salvation, then you have a problem. What is someone gets saved, but is does not have access to water and dies before they are able to make it to be baptized?? For example, what if someone gets saved on an air plane, and the plane crashes before they get a chance to be baptized?? I could come up with hundreds of reasonable, valid scenarios where someone could receive Christ, but die before being baptized.

I mean, there are no loopholes, no exceptions if baptism is NECESSARY. If you can bring yourself to admit that is ONE situation where God might save someone without having been immersed in water, then the entire "baptism is necessary for salvation" argument collapses like a house of cards.

Shiloh, your colorful analogies and "what if" scenarios are interesting to say the least. I cannot answer "what if" scenarios....I can only go by what the Word of God teaches.

The question was, what is needed on our part for salvation to be imparted unto us? You answered twice that nothing more than faith is needed; in essence, we simply have to believe in the Gospel of Christ and we are saved.

unfortunately, your answer is flawed. What about REPENTANCE? Does God do that for us also? Is that a "work"? God forbid. Without repentance, belief in the Savior will not save you. This is the first step in the plan of salvation. (and which, by the way, is not found in the clever ABC plan of salvation)

Most people in the world don't have purple tennis shoes(I know I don't, anyway), but most have, or if needed, can gain access to water (sheesh, most of this world is water). As far as admitting to one situation in which someone was not baptized and saved anyhow, I can't "admit" that per the Bible doesn't give me license to admit that. Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven? As far as those who Jesus forgave and invited to paradise while he was on earth.....again that was another dispensation, and as of yet there was no way to apply the Blood of Christ to one's life, for the blood was not poured out yet.

That argument is similiar to the non-Christian's argument of "how can a loving God send good people to Hell?" Simply put, they didn't obey. In Noah's day, only 8 were saved by "water", and that is likened to this baptism. 1 peter 3:20-21.

Peace

Very well said. I agree whole heartedly.

[Guest locuveritas]

Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!"

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Don`t you even fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong."

He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He said to him, "Most assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (WEB)

Does this answer you question? There is an exception, isn't there. IMO, this destroys any stand that baptism is required for salvation and remission of sin. But, I know it won't because no one is going to shange their stand on this issue. No matter how much proof is provided.

Did not Jesus have the power on earth to forgive sin? Just because Jesus chose to forgive the theif's sins doesn't take away from Jesus saying that if we believe and are baptized we will be saved.

[Rick-Parker]

Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!"

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Don`t you even fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong."

He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He said to him, "Most assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (WEB)

Does this answer you question? There is an exception, isn't there. IMO, this destroys any stand that baptism is required for salvation and remission of sin. But, I know it won't because no one is going to shange their stand on this issue. No matter how much proof is provided.

Did not Jesus have the power on earth to forgive sin? Just because Jesus chose to forgive the theif's sins doesn't take away from Jesus saying that if we believe and are baptized we will be saved.

Hence my last statement.

[OneLight]

Can you give me an example of someone who died believing, but not baptized, and yet went to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!"

But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Don`t you even fear God, seeing you are in the same condemnation?

And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong."

He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He said to him, "Most assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (WEB)

Does this answer you question? There is an exception, isn't there. IMO, this destroys any stand that baptism is required for salvation and remission of sin. But, I know it won't because no one is going to shange their stand on this issue. No matter how much proof is provided.

Did not Jesus have the power on earth to forgive sin? Just because Jesus chose to forgive the theif's sins doesn't take away from Jesus saying that if we believe and are baptized we will be saved.

No, it does not, but consider those who are right at deaths door that accepts Him as their Lord and Savior, but will never have the time to be baptized. Will they enter into His presence?

If there is time to be baptized, then a person should, for it is one of the first things we are told to do upon being saved. It all is about obedience. Salvation is a free gift from God and only requires us to accept it through faith in Jesus.

[bison.78]

Shiloh, this is the post (what you claim to be proof texting) I was asking you to expose if you found it to be false, not the other.Rick, Baptism is the means by which Christ's Blood is applied to our lives....here's scripture to prove it:

In the OT, the sins of the people could not be cancelled out, or remitted, without a sacrifice/ offering...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Which, as we know, typifies Christ offering Himself for our sins. What is the purpose of Christ's Blood?

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

That being said, how can we apply this Blood that remits sin to our lives on a pragmatic level?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ( for what purpose?) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism and Belief in Christ go hand in hand.....you can't have one without the other.

I believe the same point was made by guitarman, if I am reitterating, I apologize.

What you are doing is grabbing verses that are not parallel, that do not occur in like contexts and are not addressing like issues and stringing them together to make the Bible appear to support your premise.

The following is an accurate definition of prooftexting:

Prooftext, prooftexting

A prooftext is a verse or short passage from the Bible used by someone as part of his proof for a doctrinal belief he wishes to substantiate to others. However, since verses and passages may rely extensively on the context in which they appear for correct interpretation, pulling these out of their context and having them stand alone in a "proof" can, at times, be very misleading. In addition, a set of such prooftexts can completely ignore other passages which, if added to the mix, might well lead to an entirely different conclusion. Someone who relies strongly only on a list of prooftexts in order to make a doctrinal argument may have a very weak case for his argument. Noting that a religious teacher relies heavily just on prooftexting is viewed in theological circles as a very negative evaluation. Taken from Biblestudy.org

Ok. This a correct definition of proof texting. I understand that. however, what I am asking is for you to show why it is a weak case. You can't just dismiss it as a weak case by giving a definition of how one "may" or "might" build a weak case. Show it is unsubstantiated. What makes these issues not "like" issues? Are they not all pertaining to remission of sins?

Peace