Sacrifice or Obeying?

[Rick-Parker]

God has provided our Sacrifice. He want's our obedience.

[Guest Greg Davies]

We all know that God is looking on the heart. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus describes the kingdom He is bringing as an inner reality of holiness manifesting outwardly as opposed to the Law which is designed to restrain us from the outside in.

With Saul, it was all about Him. As it was said before, if I look good...

Obedience comes from the submissive attitude, the humble heart and that is what God is interested in. His kingdom within us manifesting from us to the world.

Greg.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Greg Davies

[Smalcald]

Brother Fresno,

I am sure that your are aware of this but it bears clarification for many who do not realize it.

Here is a little context on John 3:16, it is not a stand alone verse: It does not just refer to head knowledge, intellectual belief, but 'living faith', which is received when one is 'born again' as Jesus was telling Nicodemus. Only those who have repented of sin, and been 'born again', can 'believe' or have faith unto eternal life for Jesus will indwell their heart through that 'faith'.

Joh 3:16

For God so loved the world, that

he gave

his only begotten Son, that

whoever

believes

in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, for the world has already been condemned since the Fall in the Garden. Thus the purpose of God Writing His Law on Tables of Stone, to show the world their condemnation:

3:17

For God

sent not

his Son into the world

to

condemn

the world

(It was already condemned by the Law, the 'Ten Commandments);

but that the world through him

might be

saved

(saved from that condemnation of the law because of their evil heart that loved evil deeds, changed from that condition, receiving the Holy Jesus to dwell in their heart by faith).

This 'belief' that negates condemnation is that which brings the 'indwelling Spirit of Holiness' to lead the 'believer' into all Holiness giving him a 'new heart, a 'Spiritual heart', that loves righteousness and good deeds:

3:18

He that

believes

on him is

not condemned

:

but he that

believes not

is

condemned already

,

because

he has

not believed

in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now John defines the condemnation and the reason for it, that men loved darkness and evil, rather than God and righteousness, right doing, thus needing to be 'born from above' in order to escape that condemnation.

3:19

And this is the

condemnation,

that

light

(Jesus the living example of the truth and righteousness)

has come into the world,

and men

loved

darkness

rather than

light

,

because their

deeds

were

evil

.

Here John identifies and contrasts \ those who really 'believe' and those who don't believe or who just have a 'head belief' that does not lead to being 'born again', a 'head faith', which consists of only talk, and not action.

3:20

For

every one

that

does evil hates

the

light

,

neither

comes to the light,

lest

his deeds

should be

reproved

.

3:21

But he that

does truth

comes to the

light

,

that

his deeds

may be

made manifest

,

that they are

wrought in God

(Righteous and holy).

Thus the 'belief' that does not perish, is a 'living faith', that receives Jesus into the heart, not just a head 'faith', that described by James, which does not change the heart, thus changing the 'evil deeds' to 'righteous deeds' that are the work of God through the indwelling of Jesus in the heart. Thus Paul speaks of this in Galatians, when He talks about the true circumcision of heart:

Gal 5:6

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision; but

faith

which

works

by

love

.

(notice it is not just faith, not just works, and not just love, but a 'faith' that 'works' by 'love', the sure proof of 'living faith', of Christ dwelling in the heart through the 'New Birth'.

The use of John 3:16 alone, without context, leads thousands to a head faith, which does not save, does not lead to the 'New Birth', but to a dead faith, which only deceives the 'believer' to presume that he/she is saved when there is no fruit, no evidence of Jesus dwelling within.

God bless,

Dennis

Good post Dennis.

I think the issue of what faith really is and really means is often lost and takes us into much confusion. Really the "works" that we do serve us, not our salvation, as they assure us and comfort us that the Holy Spirit is indeed present and that we do have true faith.

[tsth]

Not to mention, but that the works that we do, not only serve us AND others around us, but the outcome also proves/testifies to the proving that God really was RIGHT in what He told us! Which then serves to strengthen our faith even more! Because we taste and see that God is good/right. His ways really do prove to be true/better than our ways. At least that is what has happened with me. The more I trust and DO WHAT HE SAYS, even when it would have seemed easier(more comfortable) to do what "I want", the more I see that the outcome of God's Ways were MUCH BETTER than I could have ever imagined. (I'm sure that's how it felt for Abraham and Sarah, Moses, David, Joseph, Noah, etc.)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Openly Curious]

Seems as if today's worshippers are BIG into the spiritual motions. You know, going to church, singing the songs, raising of hands, participating in functions, etc. But, what about obeying God when He speaks? Saul found out the hard way, it's not enough to "look" spiritual. That's not what it's about. I was reading the following last night. I've read it so many times, but the message is SO BIG!

1 Samuel 15

1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" 4 So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim--two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. 7 Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. 8 He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. 9 But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs--everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

10 Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: 11 "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the Lord all that night. 12 Early in the morning Samuel got up and went to meet Saul, but he was told, "Saul has gone to Carmel. There he has set up a monument in his own honor and has turned and gone on down to Gilgal." 13 When Samuel reached him, Saul said, "The Lord bless you! I have carried out the Lord's instructions." 14 But Samuel said, "What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears? What is this lowing of cattle that I hear?" 15 Saul answered, "The soldiers brought them from the Amalekites; they spared the best of the sheep and cattle to sacrifice to the Lord your God, but we totally destroyed the rest." 16 "Stop!" Samuel said to Saul. "Let me tell you what the Lord said to me last night." "Tell me," Saul replied. 17 Samuel said, "Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The Lord anointed you king over Israel. 18 And he sent you on a mission, saying, 'Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.' 19 Why did you not obey the Lord? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the Lord?" 20 "But I did obey the Lord," Saul said. "I went on the mission the Lord assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the Lord your God at Gilgal." 22 But Samuel replied: "Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the Lord? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king."

24 Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the Lord's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the Lord." 26 But Samuel said to him, "I will not go back with you. You have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you as king over Israel!" 27 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul caught hold of the hem of his robe, and it tore. 28 Samuel said to him, "The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors--to one better than you. 29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind." 30 Saul replied, "I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel; come back with me, so that I may worship the Lord your God." 31 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the Lord.

32 Then Samuel said, "Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites." Agag came to him confidently, thinking, "Surely the bitterness of death is past." 33 But Samuel said, "As your sword has made women childless, so will your mother be childless among women." 33 And Samuel put Agag to death before the Lord at Gilgal. 34 Then Samuel left for Ramah, but Saul went up to his home in Gibeah of Saul. 35 Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the Lord was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Saul was guilty of sin before God as the Lord told Saul to destroy all the cattle but Saul instead of destoying them all Saul took them all and decided to offer them all to the Lord as a sacrifice to God. The Lord was angry with what Saul had done. Samual even told Saul what he done and Saul said they were sacrifices to the Lord. And that is when the words were spoken obedience was better than sacrifice. After this Saul fell on his own sword overthrown by God himself.

So living in pretense will get you nowhere as God demands obedience instead of all that you can come up with to offer up to him.

OC

[OneLight]

There is a sacrifice that is considered to be obedience, see Hebrews 10:5-10. Jesus came to do the will of God in order to wipe out sacrifice and offering, but that will included the sacrifice of Himself, a new sacrifice was born to wash away our sins.

In one sense obedience is better than even this sacrifice, but in another sense we must realize that without the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross there is no salvation, therefore this sacrifice is better than obedience and produces obedience.

On the other hand, if you are relying on this sacrifice and it has not produced obedience in your life, there should be doubt in your mind as to whether you have really availed yourself of Christ's obedience in going to the Cross.

We must not forget that Jesus Himself asked for this cup to be removed from before Him as we read in Luke 22:41-44 ...

And He was withdrawn from them about a stone

[Openly Curious]

There is a sacrifice that is considered to be obedience, see Hebrews 10:5-10. Jesus came to do the will of God in order to wipe out sacrifice and offering, but that will included the sacrifice of Himself, a new sacrifice was born to wash away our sins.

In one sense obedience is better than even this sacrifice, but in another sense we must realize that without the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross there is no salvation, therefore this sacrifice is better than obedience and produces obedience.

On the other hand, if you are relying on this sacrifice and it has not produced obedience in your life, there should be doubt in your mind as to whether you have really availed yourself of Christ's obedience in going to the Cross.

I don't think that the original OP is on the sacrifice of Christ. However I do see the point you are making for it is true as it says, "in the book of Hebrews."

Hebrews9:14--"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God purge your own conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

When it comes to the Lord all God is looking for is our faith in whatever we do or don't do for that matter. When our faith touches the heart of God then God wiill reward us our diligence to obey him and those who diligently search for him will be rewarded for their faith.

Well I think I have said enough take care Judah Lion

OC