What Christians Believe

[Kansasdad]

Again we must go back to scripture for guidance, not what just makes sense to us. Scripture tells us his church is the guardian of truth. Thus it is imperative that we trace our understanding of his truth to his church. The Holy Spirit will guide us using his church. That is the plan God made. This is how he chooses to operate. We all have the same words of scripture, but that has not led to the same understanding or teaching.

I have tried to find in the bible where the church is the guardian of truth and where the Holy Spirit will guide us only through the church, but fail to. Please support your statements with scripture.

That is precisely why God gave us the promise he did. So that we, for all ages, would know how to find his truth, and we could rest on the very promise of God for our assurance. The bottom line is do you actually trust Gods promise. If one makes the statement, How do I know Gods church is teaching me false doctrine, are we not in fact expressing our doubt in Gods ability to keep his promise? He promised the Holy Spirit would guide his church for every generation and that his church would protect his truth even against the gates of hell. This isn't a trivial promise. Yet it is one that for us to believe we must give up our own pride and self confidence and rely completely on God.

The Holy Spirit was given to His Body, which consists of every believer who has accepted Jesus as their Savior, which is called His Church. You contradict yourself by stating that not all churches are Gods church and then state that we should never question a church to see if it is God's church. If we can not question a church, how are we to know which church belongs to Him??? Your words in bold should send caution in a form of a bright red flag to anyone who knows the truth, for we are to always ensure what we are being taught is the truth.

Now it still becomes most imperative that we are actually following the church that Jesus set up with him as the cornerstone, and the prophets and Apostles as a foundation.

God Bless,

K.D.

And... what church is that? All through this thread you have been saying God's church, without telling anyone what you mean in fear of going against what EricH had posted. You obeyed the letter of his request, but did not follow the heart of it. I ask you to tell me how you know a church is God's church without questioning their doctrines and teachings to ensure they are in deed following the scriptures?

Onelight: I have provided scripture that says exactly what I have stated. These are not my words but the words of scripture. By your statement I get the impression you are not actually reading my post.

I did not say you should follow any church without question, again this leads me to believe that you are not reading my post, but making assumptions.

I am not hiding anything out of fear. I have simply stated exactly what scripture has told us. I know it is a hard message for you, but God did not ask you to like or even approve of his plan.

You want to know "what Church" then lets take your and my opinion out of the equation and see exactly how God set up his church and how his plan was implemented to insure it would continue.

According to scripture His church is not just a group of people that meet to worship and support each other. That is your definition but it is not from scripture.

Scripture does tell us how Jesus set up his church, and how the Apostles continued his Church and how it continued after the Apostles. It is through Gods plan that we find his promise. I gave you the scriptures in earlier post, you can go back and look. There is more that God has to say on the subject, Lets look to what God tells us and not just our opinions. You may not like the conclusions I have made. I am not trying to draw the conclusions for you. You will need to do that on your own, but we can't just ignore parts of scripture because we don't like or agree with what it says.

God Bless,

K.D.

[EricH]

Again we must go back to scripture for guidance, not what just makes sense to us. Scripture tells us his church is the guardian of truth. Thus it is imperative that we trace our understanding of his truth to his church. The Holy Spirit will guide us using his church. That is the plan God made. This is how he chooses to operate. We all have the same words of scripture, but that has not led to the same understanding or teaching.

I have tried to find in the bible where the church is the guardian of truth and where the Holy Spirit will guide us only through the church, but fail to. Please support your statements with scripture.

That is precisely why God gave us the promise he did. So that we, for all ages, would know how to find his truth, and we could rest on the very promise of God for our assurance. The bottom line is do you actually trust Gods promise. If one makes the statement, How do I know Gods church is teaching me false doctrine, are we not in fact expressing our doubt in Gods ability to keep his promise? He promised the Holy Spirit would guide his church for every generation and that his church would protect his truth even against the gates of hell. This isn't a trivial promise. Yet it is one that for us to believe we must give up our own pride and self confidence and rely completely on God.

The Holy Spirit was given to His Body, which consists of every believer who has accepted Jesus as their Savior, which is called His Church. You contradict yourself by stating that not all churches are Gods church and then state that we should never question a church to see if it is God's church. If we can not question a church, how are we to know which church belongs to Him??? Your words in bold should send caution in a form of a bright red flag to anyone who knows the truth, for we are to always ensure what we are being taught is the truth.

Now it still becomes most imperative that we are actually following the church that Jesus set up with him as the cornerstone, and the prophets and Apostles as a foundation.

God Bless,

K.D.

And... what church is that? All through this thread you have been saying God's church, without telling anyone what you mean in fear of going against what EricH had posted. You obeyed the letter of his request, but did not follow the heart of it. I ask you to tell me how you know a church is God's church without questioning their doctrines and teachings to ensure they are in deed following the scriptures?

Onelight: I have provided scripture that says exactly what I have stated. These are not my words but the words of scripture. By your statement I get the impression you are not actually reading my post.

I did not say you should follow any church without question, again this leads me to believe that you are not reading my post, but making assumptions.

I am not hiding anything out of fear. I have simply stated exactly what scripture has told us. I know it is a hard message for you, but God did not ask you to like or even approve of his plan.

You want to know "what Church" then lets take your and my opinion out of the equation and see exactly how God set up his church and how his plan was implemented to insure it would continue.

According to scripture His church is not just a group of people that meet to worship and support each other. That is your definition but it is not from scripture.

Scripture does tell us how Jesus set up his church, and how the Apostles continued his Church and how it continued after the Apostles. It is through Gods plan that we find his promise. I gave you the scriptures in earlier post, you can go back and look. There is more that God has to say on the subject, Lets look to what God tells us and not just our opinions. You may not like the conclusions I have made. I am not trying to draw the conclusions for you. You will need to do that on your own, but we can't just ignore parts of scripture because we don't like or agree with what it says.

God Bless,

K.D.

But we do need to make sure that we are interpreting those scriptures correctly. That is the issue

[vicki-aka-bebe]

well for me it is simple... under any name i just believe that God made it simple for us and the bible tells us what we need to know as the truth... i am a born again washed in the blood of Jesus ... saved by grace.... and i am thankful to the Holy Spirit which leads guides and teaches me... now what ever group i am put in well all i know is the truth will set u free and i believe Jesus is that... simple very simple....

God bless sister vicki aka bebe

[EricH]

(Matt. 16:18) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Here we see that the Gates of hell will not prevail against "IT" the "IT" is Gods Church. So we need to understand what is Gods church.

All this states is that God will preserve His church. It does not specify if Jesus is talking about a local gathering, or the universal gathering of all believers. The burden is on you to prove from the scriptures which is being talked about (since you are making the claim).

(1 Tim. 3:15). But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. This verse does not make sense if "Church" is an invisible spiritual connection of all believers.

Timothy was actually a letter addressed to local churches in Ephesus. So one would guess that these are instructions on how to administer local churches, not a universal one. So I see no evidence that this is a specific denomination or world-wide oranization

Eph. 3:9 And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things: 10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

Gods Church, as set up by Jesus has a structure to it. And it is this church build on top of the structure given to us by Jesus through the Apostles and Prophets that is the pillar and ground of the truth.

Agree that God uses the church to spread the gospel. The context of Ephesians 3 is actually Paul's ministry to the gentiles. Namely that the gentiles are now "co-heirs" with the Jews (3:1-7). The only structure mentioned in scripture is for the selection of elders in local bodies. Any other structure you are implying here is not evident in the text and would require you to read it in. it does not say that the church is what builds on the foundation.

John, 16: 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you. Notice here Jesus is talking to the Apostles. The Spirit will guide the Apostles, the very foundation that God builds his Church Upon using Jesus as their cornerstone, and the Holy Spirit as their guide.

Too many people try to make themselves Gods church. They are part of the Church but they are not the Church.

Church is not mentioned here. only his disciples and later by extention all who come after. you are reading in here. All believers make up the church. you have not provided any evidence to the contrary.

Acts Of Apostles 20:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

No argument that God has placed overseeres over local churchs (which is what Acts 20 is referencing in Ephesus). No mention that they are to replace scripture. None of the passage you have provided have "made your point" you are required to read into them. thus you claim that you are standing on scripture is not completely true. because scripture alone does not make your case. you are required to appeal to your own version of history, and to tradition to complete your case.

[OneLight]

Kansasdad, I have read all of what you wrote. You see the church as the Catholic Church and I see it as the gathering of all His people. You see the Holy Spirit guiding the church, which, in turn, guides the people. I see the Holy Spirit as guiding everyone, using not only His teachings, but through those who He has gifted and placed in office over certain smaller gatherings of His people. You see the truth maintained and guarded by your church, I see the truth taught to every believer in Christ through His Spirit.

I have read what you wrote, I just don't agree with you.

[heresyhunter]

I see willieH is a nonbeliever and a universalist. The two seem to go hand in hand, don't they?

[Guest Biblicist]

Kansasdad, I have read all of what you wrote. You see the church as the Catholic Church and I see it as the gathering of all His people. You see the Holy Spirit guiding the church, which, in turn, guides the people. I see the Holy Spirit as guiding everyone, using not only His teachings, but through those who He has gifted and placed in office over certain smaller gatherings of His people. You see the truth maintained and guarded by your church, I see the truth taught to every believer in Christ through His Spirit.

I have read what you wrote, I just don't agree with you.

You know there is a difference between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church...

[OneLight]

Kansasdad, I have read all of what you wrote. You see the church as the Catholic Church and I see it as the gathering of all His people. You see the Holy Spirit guiding the church, which, in turn, guides the people. I see the Holy Spirit as guiding everyone, using not only His teachings, but through those who He has gifted and placed in office over certain smaller gatherings of His people. You see the truth maintained and guarded by your church, I see the truth taught to every believer in Christ through His Spirit.

I have read what you wrote, I just don't agree with you.

You know there is a difference between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church...

No, to tell you the truth, I don't. Please explain the difference to me. I do admit that I have know them as the same. I was brought up in a Catholic Church and thought they were one in the same. To which is it taught that only the Pope can tell you what to believe, and is it different in the other? I have heard that there are charismatic Catholic churches.

At any point, if I have used the wrong denominational name, then I apologize, but a church that dictates what is the truth and what is not without being allowed to question, quenching the personal teaching of the Holy Spirit is the denomination I mean.

[psalmone]

I think what the OP may have been inquireing into to is,' What authoritative body may we refer to, to speak faithfully on behalf of the Christian faith, with its many denominations and their seemingly varied emphases?'.

I'd been considering this also.

I acknowledged that the church has been developing since the first century and this is reasonable, as the scripture tells us that God has placed ministries in the church to perfect the saints, which implies a gradual process and similarly an open condition where we are having truth revealed to us increasengly and contextualising all that we'd been taught.

We are also told to expect knowledge to increase in the last days, some had attributed this to the world, though I believe significantly in the Church this will be more the case as the absolute necessity of the Church is realised in it all.

There are other developments that will occur related with with commitment, where 'they who do the will of the Father will KNOW the doctrine whereof Jesus spake', and that relative to these knowledge-will-increase-days in which we live and may have yet to experience.

Alot of things are justified when through persecution the believer finds themselves covered by the Word in peculiar territory that only trial can cause them to visit,personally and otherwise confirming doctrine.

So only to say that even though all we need are revealed in the Word, there is yet a pioneering in the bounds of God's grace where many denominations may be justified of their emphases which were previously not appreciated.

Many ministries have their statements of faith frontal to their ministry which will let us know generally if they are agreed with the standard Christian creeds, and there are organisations that speak for the 'creed-agreed' denominations on national and international levels, who address politics and the media duely. As for names I am not familiar with all of them though I am sure one could find out and be informed of their vision for satifying some of the inquiries expressed in the OP.

Edited March 19, 2008 by psalmone

[Guest Biblicist]

Kansasdad, I have read all of what you wrote. You see the church as the Catholic Church and I see it as the gathering of all His people. You see the Holy Spirit guiding the church, which, in turn, guides the people. I see the Holy Spirit as guiding everyone, using not only His teachings, but through those who He has gifted and placed in office over certain smaller gatherings of His people. You see the truth maintained and guarded by your church, I see the truth taught to every believer in Christ through His Spirit.

I have read what you wrote, I just don't agree with you.

You know there is a difference between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church...

No, to tell you the truth, I don't. Please explain the difference to me. I do admit that I have know them as the same. I was brought up in a Catholic Church and thought they were one in the same. To which is it taught that only the Pope can tell you what to believe, and is it different in the other? I have heard that there are charismatic Catholic churches.

At any point, if I have used the wrong denominational name, then I apologize, but a church that dictates what is the truth and what is not without being allowed to question, quenching the personal teaching of the Holy Spirit is the denomination I mean.

Well, here let me show you.

Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective 'καθολικός / katholikos', meaning "general; universal" (cf. Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon).

People are afraid to use the term "catholic" church because of the Roman Catholic church, and their belief that they are the one true church. But Catholic simply means universal. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Universal [katholikos'] Church.

From 33c. - 250 during this period of time no one bothered to ask "What was the True Church?"

The true church was simply all true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The problem is best framed in the question -

Is the Church found in a structure (system) or in the condition (presence of Jesus) of the haarts of men? That is the presence of the living Lord Jesus Christ living in them.