Can believers be un-converted?

[tsth]

I agree sheya joie. I was studying a chapter this morning with regard to enduring. I don't think we truly appreciate how serious that facet is.

Hebrews 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

SOMETHING TO NOTE:

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

Endurance is SO IMPORTANT! Especially in the last days, lest there be a "falling away", by those who will not endure the suffering and did not consider the cost of discipleship.

Luke 14:27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it-- 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

A Study on it.

To Endure!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[His_Own]

This discussion is also very dear to my heart, for I have loved ones I hope to see in heaven, but right now there seems to be no evidence that they will be there. (I have been comforted by BF, LadyC, Burn, and Bib, among others. Thank you.) Although I would love to a have rock solid answer to the issue, I have come to believe it is a bit like the law of gravity and the law of aero dynamics. They seem contradictory at first - one says you jump off a high cliff and you can die, the other says you jump off a high cliff and you can fly. But, there is a point at which both are true: If you jump off a cliff without a hang glider you can die; If you jump off a cliff with a hang glider you can fly.)

I personally believe both are true, for our Father does not lie or mislead. But, we are finite, and do not understand xxxx (like the hang glider) that makes them both come together in agreement. He is Father, at times we just need to be His little ones and run into His faithful arms and trust that He loves others as much as He loves us -- for that is always the Truth.

I also believe that as we grow, we go through stages similar to natural growth stages. There is a time ("terrible twos" for one) where rules should be taught and enforced - don't run into the street, don't touch the stove,.... As we grow, we understand the loving principles behind the rules, and we learn that we can ride our bikes single file on the street, or touch the stove whtn it is not hot. Some need to know that He loves them enough to put up boundaries, while others need to know that He loves them even when they cross the boundaries. (that is me!!) The bottom line: it really is about Love and not Law; relationship and not rules.

I was raised believing I could loose my salvation, and for 7 years after accepting Him into my heart, I lived in fear that I would do something that would keep me from Him. I was not free to live life fully, freely, abundantly, until I knew that He loved me no matter what. He is the One Who saved me, and He alone could keep me. I trusted Him for my salvation, I needed to trust Him for my preservation. My life changed dramatically after that. So, it is the following thoughts and verses that I cling to:

The Creator is all knowing - He knew all your potential sins before you were born, and sent His Son to die for you anyway.

If He loved us that much when He knew ALL of our sins before He died, and loved us that much when we were His enemies, what could we possibly do to make Him abandon us after we have turned to Him?

Once we have asked His Son to live in us and through us, it is not we who live, but His Son Who lives in us - He will not reject His Own.

Romans 8:34

[exrockstar]

I think of this verse:

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that

endureth to the end

shall be saved.

i think youre taking one line of scripture pertaining to something else and running with it.

[tsth]

I think of this verse:

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that

endureth to the end

shall be saved.

i think youre taking one line of scripture pertaining to something else and running with it.

Dear exrockstar,

It isn't about one line of Scripture. There are many!

What do you do with the "ifs" in Scriptures? Can you ignore their implications?

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23

if

you continue in your faith

, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

1 Cor. 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved,

if

you hold fast that word which I preached to you

--unless you believed in vain.

Romans 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,

if

you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off

.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ

if

we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

In His Truth,

Suzanne

I agree sheya joie. I was studying a chapter this morning with regard to enduring. I don't think we truly appreciate how serious that facet is.

Hebrews 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

SOMETHING TO NOTE:

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.

4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

Endurance is SO IMPORTANT! Especially in the last days, lest there be a "falling away", by those who will not endure the suffering and did not consider the cost of discipleship.

Luke 14:27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it-- 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

A Study on it.

To Endure!(It's in the Study Section)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[sheya joie]

I think of this verse:

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that

endureth to the end

shall be saved.

i think youre taking one line of scripture pertaining to something else and running with it.

One line?

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

(The Matthew 24 and Mark 13 passages are in the context of answering the disciples' question, 'Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?)'

[Guest LadyC]

that is the problem i have with the OSAS doctrine... it has to ignore so, so many things in scripture, including entire passages (john 15: 4-11) and chapters! (romans 1, romans 11)

[stevehut]

When the above poster stated, "the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road," I thought of several friends of mine. Many of which were raised in Christian homes, said they were believers, got baptised, went to church, and are now pagans, atheists, or witches.

Perhaps the problem is that they weren't really Christians in the first place?

"Playing church" is our nation's #1 pastime.

[stevehut]

that is the problem i have with the OSAS doctrine... it has to ignore so, so many things in scripture, including entire passages (john 15: 4-11) and chapters! (romans 1, romans 11)

Yup.

[exrockstar]

I think of this verse:

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that

endureth to the end

shall be saved.

i think youre taking one line of scripture pertaining to something else and running with it.

One line?

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

this is the thing that i have a problem with those that push an interpretation to fit their beliefs.

by all means push the "endurance" point of view but don't throw a bunch of scripture to make something so.

i commented on Mat 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

but understand that Christ hasnt died yet so John 3:15 IS NOT in effect.

Christ is telling the apostels that he's about to die and to hold firm.

17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.

19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me,

but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

that is something that YOU do not personally experience but the apostles did. Christ was talking to them.

If you want to throw a spin and say "well im not turned over to synangogues but i am not liked by atheists..." well...that's

not the same.

so this "endurance" is not salvation because Christ is telling the apostles what will happen to THEM.

[deut31:12]

I find it very hard to believe that when someone has come to know the Love of God, accepts Jesus as their Savior, been sealed by the Holy Spirit and have walked with the Lord with all their heart, to even entertain the thought of turning Him away and come against Him. Those who have stated that they know the Lord, but turn away, I question if they had really known them with all their heart, or just known Him with their mind? Yet, we are told that there will be a falling away in the last days. Were they talking about those who had only know Him mentally but not Spiritually?

The world and the lusts of the flesh have a very large pull and there have been many that have given up their places in heaven for their lives here on earth. Paul expresses to us about the war that is in our members and we are warned about giving into our temptations.

The "falling away" is not in the last days of time on earth. People were falling away from true Christianity as early as the seven churches in the Revelation 1-3.

God may never leave nor forsake us, but we can give up God for our own lusts.