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Can believers be un-converted?


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Guest LadyC

rockstar, i'm well aware that we are in the age of grace and that nothing we can do is ever good enough to make us worthy of what God graciously extends.

but i didn't add anything to the scripture. not one single word. the problem with the osas theology is that it subtracts a great deal from scripture. as i said before, it has to ignore not just passages, but entire chapters, to make it "fit".

anyway, neither side is going to be persuaded by anyone else's words, so it's a mute point and i will let others have the "last word", so to speak.. only the Holy Spirit can bring that awareness and understanding. i'm just grateful to have total confidence in my salvation, which only occurred after the Holy Spirit directed me away from the osas doctrine.

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I honestly don't know where I stand on OSAS.

I mean there is scriptural evidence in Hebrews in particular about dogs returning to their own vomit, about those having known the Truth and rejecting it being even worse than before and we see Christ telling people who called on His name to depart from Him as He never knew them. We see Paul talking about running a race to complete the race, and only those who complete the race receive the prize, we also see him talking about making our call and election sure, about working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, etc. We also have Christ and the parable of the sower which says some seeds do grow for a while in rocky soil, but have no root and die. On the other side we have Christ's firm and eternal promise that not one who has been given to Him will be lost that all those who confess with their mouth and believe with their heart will be saved. But OSAS also assumes that salvation is a one point in time event, which I am not sure that scripture claims that it always is. Some people take years and years to finally be fully converted and born again.

Hell is real and I think we need more preaching on the importance of repentance and the true nature of faith and the lifelong struggle we all have against sin and Satan. I am not sure I like the spiritual pride I sometimes see produced by idea of eternal security, which is also not a term found in scripture. I think it leads to planned repentance, it can also lead people to not really struggle as they should against sin. But on the other hand who cares? What I mean is if someone calls themselves a Christian but feels no real call to lead a Christian life, well who are we to judge them? Scripture judges them and scripture will condemn them in the end, regardless of if they think they are saved or not. Maybe we are just annoyed by these folks?

In the end I need to worry mainly about myself, I am not sure what good it does me spiritually to worry about people who are taking advantage of Grace, in fact it seems that it can only harm me.

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I am having to slowly read through all of this.. What exactly is the age of grace? I don't know..

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Guest LadyC
I am having to slowly read through all of this.. What exactly is the age of grace? I don't know..

age of grace = post resurrection.

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I saw this response in the Atheist thread:

See, what you don't know about me and the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road. It's not that we've never "opened our hearts to jesus" or "asked God for guidance." Nothing has ever revealed itself to me and I lived most of my life as a christian. To me, it's very hard to continue to have faith in something that I believe now is just a myth. If it works for you, great. I wouldn't disbelieve either if there had been any proof whatsover. To me, praying to god has the same effect as praying to a brick.

I discovered a very old thread with this topic but would like to revisit it.

When the above poster stated, "the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road," I thought of several friends of mine. Many of which were raised in Christian homes, said they were believers, got baptised, went to church, and are now pagans, atheists, or witches.

Some actually went to Christian schools and know the bible pretty good yet are now unbelievers and sceptics.

Once a believer, is it possible to be un-converted from Christianity? :emot-hug::emot-hug::emot-hug: This topic has been stuck in my head for some time. Thanks for responding :laugh:

I think one can depart from the faith but I think it is impossible for a Christian to be unconverted. First off it is a lost person who is already unregenerated and if they believe as the word tells us in Romans 10 they will be converted. Now once a person is coverted they are a believer and there is no way they can be unconverted as it is not like that. But one can leave the faith and return to Satan but with no conversion.

And for the record you cannot listen to atheists or agnostics for they have no faith in God and only seek to lead people away from the faith as they are liars having not the truth.

OC

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I honestly don't know where I stand on OSAS.

I mean there is scriptural evidence in Hebrews in particular about dogs returning to their own vomit, ....

my attitude is this: i am going to drill...and believe me i was raised Catholic so snapping out of non-OSAS was extremely difficult....as i was saying, i am going to drill anyway that preaches OSAS and NOT OSAS. theres alot of people that just know what their pastor says but dare challenge him. i am however not going to tell some one about a gospel of unsalvation. of coarse people are always going to "give-in" to things of this world. we're not perfect. but that is why we study to stay focused. as for the "dogs returning to their vomit...." well, that is a scripture used by many non-OSAS believers.

no one keeps in mind these other scripture describing the dogs.

2 Peter 2:"1 But there were false prophets also among the people, ..."

2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. "

my point is that these scriptures talk about those preaching a different gospel. when 2nd peter was written he was talking about

the "judaizers" (I think i spelled that right). this wasn't addressing those that were walking back into the world. he was saying

to watch for those that preach a different gospel. read all those chapters and you wont find "unsalvation."

however, put this line in the hand of some one that preaches "un-salvation" and they take that out of context.

"Dogs returning to their vomit" is not the average man going back to sin.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: "

"they" is that same religious body that Christ was up against.

this is some thing for you to think about so you can take into consideration when youre weighing in on where you stand on this scripture.

In the end I need to worry mainly about myself, I am not sure what good it does me spiritually to worry about people who are taking advantage of Grace, in fact it seems that it can only harm me.

exactly. how in the world can some one say "Christ died for your sins" and in the next minute say "wait God just disowned you."

i am no judge. i am no one to know EXACTLY what God does with a person.

I just introduce some one to Christ. Let them know what He did on the cross. Make sure they completely understand

then let God deal with their walk. I have to keep them interested to keep wanting to grow but i can't prevent a person

from doing anything else. God will shape them up and i have faith in that (Heb 12:6) instead of God disowning them.

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They are not "un-regenerated". Nobody can "un-Christian" themselves nor "un-born again" themselves. But, Christians can choose of themselves to walk away from God back into the world of sin.

But there is your problem they CANNOT go back into the world, for how can they? John made this same point in his 1st epistle. I agree that they can't "unregenerate" themselves according to 1 Peter 1:23, but you seem to think that they can go back into the world. How can a new creation act against its nature? :emot-hug:

1st John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Now I am not advocating that this teaches sinless perfection for we know that would contradict what John said two chapters earlier (1 John 1:8, 10). But it does teach that those who are born of GOD cannot go back to living in sin all of the days of there life. Yes they can fall into some sort of sin, but GOD will come for them. Why? Because He loves them and WILL discipline them according to Hebrews 12.

God will always be there for us as a strength to help us to overcome our flesh not to sin, but he will NOT intervene for us not to sin. Jesus was tempted in all points to sin, but never sinned. We are also tempted in all points to sin, but have the Holy Spirits help to overcome if we allow it. We are warned all over in the New Testament not to give into the flesh and avoid sin. Christs still have the ability to sin, but have help through God not to.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2 Peter 2:20-22

The scriptures call them "Children of Disobedience".

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: - Colossians 3:1-6

This is spoken to Christians.

You are mis-interpreting the text. The "son of disobidience" are not Christians, but those whose lives are marked by fornication, uncleanness, etc. Which in and of itself are marks of a lost unregenerated life. The evidence of ones salvation is not what they did 10 years ago, but what they are doing this very day. Because GOD will complete the good work which he started according to Philippians 1:6.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. - Ephesians 5:3-6

People like to associate a lot of the verses that were written to Churches and addressed to Christians as not applying to true Christians. Again, this verse speaks about the "children of disobedience", but in the beginning of this it says, "as becometh saints". Only "true" Christians are called saints. So, if I keep these sins in my life "after" I become a Christian, then I will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice that the Hebrews (to whom the Hebrew letter in the New Testament was written) were HOLY or sanctified brethren. (Heb 3:1), BUT Paul had to warn them against sinning, and against falling from grace by sinning: Heb. 2:2: "How shall WE escape, if WE neglect ..." Heb. 3:12: "Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in ANY of YOU an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God."(Note, sanctified brethren could neglect and NOT escape; they could get an evil heart of unbelief and DEPART.)

Heb. 4:1: "Let US therefore fear, lest, a promise being left US of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (Revised Standard Version says, "... lest any of you be JUDGED to have FAILED to reach it.")

Although the author of Hebrews does indeed call them "holy brethren" and "partakers in the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1). He makes an important point to them 14 verses later, "For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" (Hebrews 3:14). So again I make the point evidence of ones salvation is the continuing work which GOD does in all who are truly regenerated. I will not deny that there are some who look like they have been redeemed, and saved for a season (like in the parable of the sower) IF they fall away, as John said, they "were not of us" for "if they had been of us, they would HAVE continued with us" according to 1 John 2:19. Another example I believe what John is talking about are those whom have whom Peter is talking about in 1 Peter 2:20-22. Because also Jesus made it clear that his sheep will NEVER perish in John 10:28-30. If no one can snatch them out of his hand, and if nothing can seperated from the love of GOD (Romans 8:38-39) how do you expect yourself to? :huh:

But my question to you, is what did Jesus then mean in John 6:39 that "this is the will of the father that sent me, that ALL he has given me I should loose none, but raise it up at the last day"?

Burn

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. - John 6:38-41

Your two mistakes are that you think that the "all which he hath given me" is referring to people. It is not. It is everything that God gave him to give mankind for our salvation.

Second you, as well as others, think that there is a work that God is doing in us that is unstopable, changes us, and makes us so that we can no longer sin.

You, as well as others of whom I have read, are grossly mislead into thinking that Christians are now infallible. Yes, we are born of incorruptible seed and God will never leave nor forsake us, but we can give it all back if we choose to go back to sin.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. - 2 John 1:8-9

How do we lose those things? By not abiding (staying) in the doctrine of Christ. We abide in the doctrine of Christ by living according to the gospel of Christ. Outside of that is sin.

Only Christians are considered to be recipients of the rewards, so this can't be talking about those who think they are Christians

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. - Hebrews 4:1

We have the ability to come short of entering in when we choose not to abide in the doctrine of Christ and God.

We can turn our backs on God and walk no more.

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. - Hebrews 3:12

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I saw this response in the Atheist thread:

See, what you don't know about me and the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road. It's not that we've never "opened our hearts to jesus" or "asked God for guidance." Nothing has ever revealed itself to me and I lived most of my life as a christian. To me, it's very hard to continue to have faith in something that I believe now is just a myth. If it works for you, great. I wouldn't disbelieve either if there had been any proof whatsover. To me, praying to god has the same effect as praying to a brick.

I discovered a very old thread with this topic but would like to revisit it.

When the above poster stated, "the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road," I thought of several friends of mine. Many of which were raised in Christian homes, said they were believers, got baptised, went to church, and are now pagans, atheists, or witches.

Some actually went to Christian schools and know the bible pretty good yet are now unbelievers and sceptics.

Once a believer, is it possible to be un-converted from Christianity? :emot-hug::):noidea: This topic has been stuck in my head for some time. Thanks for responding :)

The only problem I have with this atheist, is she/he reveals what I have questioned about them for a long time. By not stating directly the poster revealed that they were "expecting" something and/or in the way of evidence of God's existence. For as long as I can remember into my childhood, I've always known God existed and never had to ask for evidence or signs or miracles for further evidence. But that's just my experience! Even when I gave Testimony about my early age sexual abuse and reaching out to the Father whom I already knew would see me through what most humans think now is "orientational behavior" and MUST be genetic , and cannot be redeemed from, God healed my soul and heart and mended me and remolded me into a man whom many would come to respect and love. I give all my devotion and trust to God as HE has had it from "Day One!"

To sum up what I believe, the biggest mistake one can ask God is for evidence of HIS existence. This is not only blasphemy, it is also calling the God of the Bible a LIAR! And for that, I can quite understand why some would resort to atheism. It's the only way to save face in a Human existence where wealth and presteige, and power is in control for many.

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I saw this response in the Atheist thread:

See, what you don't know about me and the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road. It's not that we've never "opened our hearts to jesus" or "asked God for guidance." Nothing has ever revealed itself to me and I lived most of my life as a christian. To me, it's very hard to continue to have faith in something that I believe now is just a myth. If it works for you, great. I wouldn't disbelieve either if there had been any proof whatsover. To me, praying to god has the same effect as praying to a brick.

I discovered a very old thread with this topic but would like to revisit it.

When the above poster stated, "the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road," I thought of several friends of mine. Many of which were raised in Christian homes, said they were believers, got baptised, went to church, and are now pagans, atheists, or witches.

Some actually went to Christian schools and know the bible pretty good yet are now unbelievers and sceptics.

Once a believer, is it possible to be un-converted from Christianity? :emot-hug::):noidea: This topic has been stuck in my head for some time. Thanks for responding :)

The only problem I have with this atheist, is she/he reveals what I have questioned about them for a long time. By not stating directly the poster revealed that they were "expecting" something and/or in the way of evidence of God's existence. For as long as I can remember into my childhood, I've always known God existed and never had to ask for evidence or signs or miracles for further evidence. But that's just my experience! Even when I gave Testimony about my early age sexual abuse and reaching out to the Father whom I already knew would see me through what most humans think now is "orientational behavior" and MUST be genetic , and cannot be redeemed from, God healed my soul and heart and mended me and remolded me into a man whom many would come to respect and love. I give all my devotion and trust to God as HE has had it from "Day One!"

To sum up what I believe, the biggest mistake one can ask God is for evidence of HIS existence. This is not only blasphemy, it is also calling the God of the Bible a LIAR! And for that, I can quite understand why some would resort to atheism. It's the only way to save face in a Human existence where wealth and presteige, and power is in control for many.

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I saw this response in the Atheist thread:

See, what you don't know about me and the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road. It's not that we've never "opened our hearts to jesus" or "asked God for guidance." Nothing has ever revealed itself to me and I lived most of my life as a christian. To me, it's very hard to continue to have faith in something that I believe now is just a myth. If it works for you, great. I wouldn't disbelieve either if there had been any proof whatsover. To me, praying to god has the same effect as praying to a brick.

I discovered a very old thread with this topic but would like to revisit it.

When the above poster stated, "the majority of atheists and agnostics is we've already been down the christianity road," I thought of several friends of mine. Many of which were raised in Christian homes, said they were believers, got baptised, went to church, and are now pagans, atheists, or witches.

Some actually went to Christian schools and know the bible pretty good yet are now unbelievers and sceptics.

Once a believer, is it possible to be un-converted from Christianity? :emot-hug::):noidea: This topic has been stuck in my head for some time. Thanks for responding :)

The only problem I have with this atheist, is she/he reveals what I have questioned about them for a long time. By not stating directly the poster revealed that they were "expecting" something and/or in the way of evidence of God's existence. For as long as I can remember into my childhood, I've always known God existed and never had to ask for evidence or signs or miracles for further evidence. But that's just my experience! Even when I gave Testimony about my early age sexual abuse and reaching out to the Father whom I already knew would see me through what most humans think now is "orientational behavior" and MUST be genetic , and cannot be redeemed from, God healed my soul and heart and mended me and remolded me into a man whom many would come to respect and love. I give all my devotion and trust to God as HE has had it from "Day One!"

To sum up what I believe, the biggest mistake one can ask God is for evidence of HIS existence. This is not only blasphemy, it is also calling the God of the Bible a LIAR! And for that, I can quite understand why some would resort to atheism. It's the only way to save face in a Human existence where wealth and presteige, and power is in control for many.

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