Miraculous Gifts

[Axxman]

That's a real good question OneLight, as I would like to know also. I for one would be very careful saying something is not of God without concrete proof that it does not line up with the Word of God. And for one to say they don't need them it's very easy if they never truly expeirenced it. For those of us who do believe in it and God uses these gifts in our lives we know how they work in our spirit to build up our faith and relationship with God. And yes there are those who would abuse these gifts and are charltans that is why the GIFT of Desernment is one of the most important gifts a christian can posses. Axxman, have you ever expeirenced in your life, that a person or sitiuation just wasn't right somehow, you didn't have proof but just a gut feeling it was not as it should be, and then later on found out you were right? That's discerment.

The cessation of certain gifts is part of recorded history. Tongues and prophecy in particular began fading in the scripture (even the gift of healing according to some.) In fact, in the first several hundred years of the early Christian church the ONLY recorded history of the tongues phenomenon was by the heretic cultist Montanus and his underling Tertullian. The gift of tongues literally disappeared from the Christian church until 1875ish when the pentacostal movement brought it back to the mainstream.

I am familiar with the gifts of the Spirit, such as discernment. I would never intend to assume that ALL gifts ceased, or that God somehow quit speaking and dealing with his people. However, there is some evidence that "miraculous" gifts did begin to fade, even during the writing of the Scripture. Shortly after writing the book of Acts, Paul writes the prison Epistles and doesn't mention one word of the miraculous gifts. In fact, there is an absence of them in Ephesians when he writes about being "filled with the Spirit" and even more so when his dear friend "Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier" was so ill and close to death....and yet Paul couldn't heal him as he had done for so many others not so long ago while writing the Book of Acts. The complete absence of miraculous gifts in the late New Testament and the following 1800 yrs is striking...even to a casual observer.

Even in James people who become ill are not told to seek healing...but rather to find people to pray for them. Rather odd advice from a guy who had the "gift of healing." At least I think so.

[Merin]

God is the same today yesterday and on Thursday

[exrockstar]

In fact, there is an absence of them in Ephesians when he writes about being "filled with the Spirit" and even more so when his dear friend "Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier" was so ill and close to death....and yet Paul couldn't heal him as he had done for so many others not so long ago while writing the Book of Acts.

People dont wanna hear this and many don't know about these lines pertaining to Paul.

If people actually believed this scripture then their "church worship" would come to a stop.

But people dont want it to stop. People want to throw hands in the air, see miracles happen

before their eyes and get excited. Nevermind the text.

[Axxman]

God is the same today yesterday and on Thursday

While it is true that God never changes, and that His attributes are unchangeable...I think there is plenty of scriptural evidence that God does deal with people in a variety of ways. What appears to be change to us, is merely natural progression. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit in Acts is a perfect example. Nobody would claim that "God changed" when he poured out His Spirit on His people...even though it was a definite change at that time in how he dealt with people. To claim that God somehow changed because some of those gifts may have dissolved or become unnecessary isn't a valid argument. It simply means that God's dealings with us progressed naturally beyond the need for such things.

In the last days God says he will pour out His Spirit again. Clearly, for him to do it "again" doesn't mean He changed...it also implies that it ceased. It merely suggests that the natural progression of His will requires another annointing of the Holy Spirit.

[OneLight]

In fact, there is an absence of them in Ephesians when he writes about being "filled with the Spirit" and even more so when his dear friend "Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier" was so ill and close to death....and yet Paul couldn't heal him as he had done for so many others not so long ago while writing the Book of Acts.

People dont wanna hear this and many don't know about these lines pertaining to Paul.

If people actually believed this scripture then their "church worship" would come to a stop.

But people dont want it to stop. People want to throw hands in the air, see miracles happen

before their eyes and get excited. Nevermind the text.

You both forget that the Holy Spirit give as He see fit, not as man writes in history. He would never give to one that does not believe. It takes faith to be able to accept His gifts. Could it also be that in the early church age, after 312 AD when so many Christians were killed for their belief, that there just were not many solid believers around those who wrote history? Could they of fled for their lives in fear of being martyred or that God moved them to safety to save His people? Just because we did not hear of them, does not mean that they were not around. God is greater and wiser then those who wrote history books.

As for what is recorded in the bible. I can not tell you why the gifts were not mentioned. Just because they were not, does not mean they did not exist. No matter how much one believes in healing, when it is our time, God holds the upper hand. Remember that the gifts are according to His will, not ours.

[Axxman]

No matter how much one believes in healing, when it is our time, God holds the upper hand. Remember that the gifts are according to His will, not ours.

Thats just it...it wasn't his time to die. God healed Paul's friend, and Paul was greatly relieved that God spared his friend. Paul was helpless to heal his friend. One of the most prolific "spirit-filled' men of the bible was worried about his ill friend and he was powerless...when just a few years earlier he was telling people to "stand up and walk" like it was nothing. Clearly, that has to have some significance to you.

[prophetsong]

I beieve that the gifts are still in affect today. There are many scriptures that back this up.

The Gift and calling of God are without repentence.

God gave gifts, to the body and the Lord is no indian giver.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever.

personally I have seen all the gifts in action so outside of scripture I say that I am a witness.

God will not be mocked. I came from an occult back ground, and can tell you that occultist use demonic versusions of the gifts of the Spirits. If the authentic gifts of the Spirit were not in opperation today that would give the enemy plenty of room to boast, that the God of the Bible can not do what we can. God in his wisdom does not open doors that allow his enemies to boast like that.

From my experience I have come to realize that those that reject the gifts of the Spirit also reject all other exressions of the supernatural. In other words they believe only in the here and now, what they can see, feel touch and make sence of in their human underestanding. Which causes me to wonder how they be saved through a faith in a man rising from the dead which is actually a supernatural event.

[OneLight]

No matter how much one believes in healing, when it is our time, God holds the upper hand. Remember that the gifts are according to His will, not ours.

Thats just it...it wasn't his time to die. God healed Paul's friend, and Paul was greatly relieved that God spared his friend. Paul was helpless to heal his friend. One of the most prolific "spirit-filled' men of the bible was worried about his ill friend and he was powerless...when just a few years earlier he was telling people to "stand up and walk" like it was nothing. Clearly, that has to have some significance to you.

All this shows is that the Spirit will move in a believer when He is ready to move. Just because one has a gift, doesn't mean they can exercise it at will. We are given them for a reason, His reason, not ours.

[eric]

Well, I am not a cessationist, and neither am I a dispesationalist. I don't believe that god made different rules to suit people of different periods of time. However , because of globalisation, there is not the need for speaking in tongues, because the bible is avaiable in hundres of different languages, that's not to say the gift has'nt been given where God deems fit.

Likewise with healing. Admittedly Paul did command people to get up and walk, but the healing didn't come from Paul, it came from the divinity of God. I've been to oodles of healing crusades and I haven't seen anyone completely healed of anything.

any gift, like grace is freely given and you can't learn it or ask for it. You are either born with it or you are not.......Well that's my take, tho I do believe and agree with Mike, discernment is the most useful gift

[exrockstar]

No matter how much one believes in healing, when it is our time, God holds the upper hand. Remember that the gifts are according to His will, not ours.

Thats just it...it wasn't his time to die. God healed Paul's friend, and Paul was greatly relieved that God spared his friend. Paul was helpless to heal his friend. One of the most prolific "spirit-filled' men of the bible was worried about his ill friend and he was powerless...when just a few years earlier he was telling people to "stand up and walk" like it was nothing. Clearly, that has to have some significance to you.

All this shows is that the Spirit will move in a believer when He is ready to move. Just because one has a gift, doesn't mean they can exercise it at will. We are given them for a reason, His reason, not ours.

but what youre saying is not scripture based. just show in scripture

that the HS moves in people when He is ready to move in form of a gift?

if you can't then you're speaking in behalf of something you dont know much about. im saying that in a nice way.