Once saved always saved?

[Khristeeanos]

Again, everybody seems to miss the main point here.

The fact that:

1. Some disagree on this issue

2. The original church did not disagree on this or any issue

proves that at some point after the church got started, false teachings came into the church.

I challenge anybody to show me any quotes from the early church that taught unconditional security.

You won't find it because it is not there. Here are many quotes from the early church about this issue:

Clement (30 to 100 AD), appears to have been at Phiippi with Paul (A.D. 57) when that first-born of the Western churches was passing through great trials of faith.

"On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture. For Lot's wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations." (First Epistle Of Clement To The Corinthians, Chapter 11)

"Let us, then not only call Him Lord, for that will not save us.  For He saith, 'Not everyone that saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall be saved, but he that worketh righteousness.'  Wherefore, brethren, let us confess Him by our works, by loving one another, by not committing adultery, or speaking evil of one another, or cherishing envy, but being continent, compassionate, and good.  We ought also to sympathize with one another, and not be avaricious.  By such works let us confess Him, and not by those that are of an opposite kind.  And it is not fitting that we should fear men, but rather God.  For this reason, if we should do such wicked things, the Lord hath said, 'Even though ye were gathered together to Me in My very bosom, yet if ye were not to keep My commandments, I would cast you off, and say unto you, 'Depart from Me; I know you not whence ye are, ye workers of iniquity.''"  (2 Epistle of Clement, Chapter 4)

Polycarp (65 to 155 AD) is believed to have been instructed by the Apostles.

"I am greatly grieved for Valens, who was once a presbyter among you, because he so little understands the place that was given him (in the Church]. I exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful. 'Abstain from every form of evil.' For if a man cannot govern himself in such matters, how shall he enjoin them on others? If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen." (Epistle Of Polycarp To The Philippians, Chapter 11)

Irenaeus (120 to 205 AD), the overseer of the church at Lyons, France, believed that we could only be saved once and if we performed a sinful deed then God would permanently revoke salvation. He is quoted:

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."

( "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity" by D.W. Bercot.)

More from Irenaeus:

"And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, He that believeth in Me is not condemned, that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God; that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXVII, 2)

Tertullian (140 to 230 AD), the elder of the church at Carthage, North Africa, taught that we can fall from grace and lose salvation:

"Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"

("Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity" by D.W. Bercot.)

Cyprian (200 to 258 AD), an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa, in referring to Matthew 10:22, appears to have believed that a believer only gains salvation at the end of their life. Everything else being only steps toward it.

"It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."

("Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity" by D.W. Bercot.)

Hyppolytus (170 to 236AD), a Bishop in Rome, provides us with the same understanding that there was no doctrine of eternal security known to the forefathers of the church. In one of his writings he discussed how many of the Jewish priest would go to the disciples of Christ in secret, confessing Christ as the Son of God, but were afraid of the Jews and so, didn't profess Christ openly. He went on in this writng:

"And the apostles received them affectionately, saying to them, 'Do not by reason of the shame and fear of men, forfeit your salvation before God, nor have the blood of Christ required of you, even as your fathers, who took it upon them. For it is not acceptable before God, that, while you are in secret with His worshippers, ye should go and be associated with the murderers of His Addorable Son. How do ye expect that your faith should be accepted with those that are true, whilst ye are with those that are false? But it becomes you, as men who believe in Christ, to confess openly this faith which we preach.' "And, when they heard these things from the disciples, those sons of the priests, all of them alike, cried out before the whole company of the apostles: 'We confess and believe in Christ who was crucified, and we confess that He is from everlasting the Son of God, and those who dared to crucify Him do we renounce.'"

We could go on and on with quotes like these that prove that the original church believed that one could fall away to eternal condemnation, even after being saved.

Read the entire quotes in context if you like:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

If you really care to dig deep, read "The Shepherd of Hermas" and you will see it over and over again.

[Ovedya]

Yet the writings you quoted from are not from the Bible. These were discounted from the canons of the early church, yes?

[Khristeeanos]

God-Man:

Interesting that none of those verses mention hell specifically. 

Here is just one:

Hebrews 10:26-27

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

One would think that something as serious as being sent to eternal perdition for falling away or being led away from the faith, would have been at least mentioned once.

What about:

Jude 5-6

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered His people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.  And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.  In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.  They serve as an example of those who will suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Why do you think hell is not mentioned for those who fall away, but only for those who corrupt the faith and who contend against it?

Just gave a few Scripture verses.

And what of the Lord's word, "No one shall remove them from my Father's hand."

Verse 27 gives the condition of following and hearing Jesus to be under this promise.

Or the other, "What can separate us from the love of Christ?"

He just got through saying that sin leads to spiritual death for a believer in verses 13-14.

[eric]

God man

You are right, hell is not mentioned. Maybe those who fall away may just finish up on the outside looking in from the darkness during the millenian time, like the five foolish virgins and the guy who wouldn't conform to wearing the correct wedding gear.

just a thought,

eric.

[Ovedya]

I am sure this has somewhat been answered here, but I am still confused.

My Dad was the strongest christian I knew. He went on several missions trips and was known to go up to a stanger and pray for them because he felt the urge to pray for them.

Now he lives in a world of sin. He left my mom and us kids, he drinks more often, not quite alcoholic level though. He is already dating someone else when he is still legally married. He always states that he knows he's going to hell at this rate, and that it is too late to live right even if he wanted too.

Is he still saved? I don't think so. What went wrong?

I am not a christian either, some of you already know this though. Anyway, isn't there a way I can let him know that he still needs to be a Dad, and that he doesn't need to go to church and all that stuff?

Sadly, be real, I think your dad is being deceived. The love of God is always present regardless of the situation. If your father still has one moment of breath - enough to say, "Lord, I'm sorry. Forgive me." Then regardless of what he believes, it's not to late for him to turn from his ways.

[Ovedya]

God man

You are right, hell is not mentioned. Maybe those who fall away may just finish up on the outside looking in from the darkness during the millenian time, like the five foolish virgins and the guy who wouldn't conform to wearing the correct wedding gear.

just a thought,

eric.

Ahhhhh....You're on to something, brother eric.

[jamie]

God-Man:

Interesting that none of those verses mention hell specifically.

[Khristeeanos]

Yet the writings you quoted from are not from the Bible. These were discounted from the canons of the early church, yes?

You miss the point.

Clement is mentioned in Philippians as being taught by The Apostle Paul directly. He would have a much better understanding of the Gospel than you or I.

Nobody taught OSAS-type teachings until just a few hundred years ago.

Why is that?

You will not find it in the history of the church except for maybe Augustine, but he was a Catholic and taught all kinds of things that you don't believe or hold to being a Protestant.

So I must continue to accept that a conditional security was the original teaching handed down by the Apostles themselves.

[Khristeeanos]

Sadly, be real, I think your dad is being deceived. The love of God is always present regardless of the situation. If your father still has one moment of breath - enough to say, "Lord, I'm sorry. Forgive me." Then regardless of what he believes, it's not to late for him to turn from his ways.

Amen to that!

God wants everybody to be saved! But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits wickedness, his soul shall die.

That is still in the Bible, right?

[Guest be_real]

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits wickedness, his soul shall die.

wait. stop. hold on. I have no idea what you mean there. I can see that this is kinda busy with other issues, you can post the meaning of this, if you want to, in "What is Christianity?". or PM me, I don't care, but please explain.

Thanks.