Did Jesus descend into hell?

[Celt]

You may want to provide a logical answer then as to why Jesus went and spoke to "those spirits" which were disobedient in the days on Noah.

Why does Holy Writ focus in on only those spirits from that time?

What about all the spirits before and after Noah that were disobedient?

Exactly, if we think Christ preaching to the "spirits in prison" after His Resurrection only means declaring His Victory to fallen angels of Noah's day, like certain scholars believed back in the 1800's, then everyone before Christ's Resurrection would be lost. The prophecy in Isaiah 42, 49:9, and 61:1 is of the time when Christ would be sent to die on the cross, and it's also about the opening of the prison and freeing those that are bound. That's the event of Christ preaching to the spirits in prison, the heavenly prison. No doubt those that believed Christ led out.

[BlindSeeker]

You may want to provide a logical answer then as to why Jesus went and spoke to "those spirits" which were disobedient in the days on Noah.

Why does Holy Writ focus in on only those spirits from that time?

What about all the spirits before and after Noah that were disobedient?

Exactly, if we think Christ preaching to the "spirits in prison" after His Resurrection only means declaring His Victory to fallen angels of Noah's day, like certain scholars believed back in the 1800's, then everyone before Christ's Resurrection would be lost. . .

Perhaps both they and you are wrong and Jesus didn't preach to fallen angels or people in hell . . . but why would Jesus have to preach to people in hell or else, as you claim, "everyone before Christ's Resurrection would be lost?"

The prophecy in Isaiah 42, 49:9, and 61:1 is of the time when Christ would be sent to die on the cross, and it's also about the opening of the prison and freeing those that are bound. That's the event of Christ preaching to the spirits in prison, the heavenly prison. No doubt those that believed Christ led out.

What scripture is it that says Christ led them out?

If their prison was in heaven then they would have been in Paradise . . . Christ led them out to were?

Since when was paradise a prison? It was certainly a big step up for Lazarus . . . was he bound in paradise as well?

What about Heb. 11:9, 10?

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The verses you quoted are about Christ coming to those in prison (the Jews) and those in darkness (the Gentiles). Their bondage was their sin . . . not hell.

[Massorite]

You may want to provide a logical answer then as to why Jesus went and spoke to "those spirits" which were disobedient in the days on Noah.

Why does Holy Writ focus in on only those spirits from that time?

What about all the spirits before and after Noah that were disobedient?

Exactly, if we think Christ preaching to the "spirits in prison" after His Resurrection only means declaring His Victory to fallen angels of Noah's day, like certain scholars believed back in the 1800's, then everyone before Christ's Resurrection would be lost. . .

Perhaps both they and you are wrong and Jesus didn't preach to fallen angels or people in hell . . . but why would Jesus have to preach to people in hell or else, as you claim, "everyone before Christ's Resurrection would be lost?"

The prophecy in Isaiah 42, 49:9, and 61:1 is of the time when Christ would be sent to die on the cross, and it's also about the opening of the prison and freeing those that are bound. That's the event of Christ preaching to the spirits in prison, the heavenly prison. No doubt those that believed Christ led out.

What scripture is it that says Christ led them out?

If their prison was in heaven then they would have been in Paradise . . . Christ led them out to were?

Since when was paradise a prison? It was certainly a big step up for Lazarus . . . was he bound in paradise as well?

What about Heb. 11:9, 10?

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The verses you quoted are about Christ coming to those in prison (the Jews) and those in darkness (the Gentiles). Their bondage was their sin . . . not hell.

Frankly speaking there is no such thing as a "heavenly prison" spoken of any where in the bible. Jesus is all about being freed not put into prison.

[Celt]

I gave the OT references to Christ opening the prison in my previous posts. I also gave other Scripture reference showing that the abode of hell is likened to a prison in God's Word. I didn't make that kind of comparison up, it's written.

Rev 12:7-10

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

(KJV)

Satan and his angels have "their place" in Heaven. That agrees with what our Lord Jesus taught about hell being across a "great gulf fixed" border in Paradise. And the apostle Paul in 2 Cor.12 related Paradise with the 'third heaven'.

Luke 16:23-26

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(KJV)

What is 'hell' doing across that "great gulf fixed" border in Paradise? That's not something our Lord Jesus made up. He would not deceive us with that description about Paradise which is in Heaven.

Luke 23:42-43

42 And he said unto Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.'

43 And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.'

(KJV)

Since Jesus said that the malefactor would be with Him in Paradise that day, why is it so difficult for many to understand about Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison after His Resurrection, and leading those who believed out? Where did Jesus lead those out? Well, where did Jesus say the malefactor would be? With Him in Paradise.

[BlindSeeker]

I gave the OT references to Christ opening the prison in my previous posts. I also gave other Scripture reference showing that the abode of hell is likened to a prison in God's Word. I didn't make that kind of comparison up, it's written.

I do not believe they were speaking of people imprisoned in hell. Do you have any NT verses where the apostles taught such . . . other than the verses in Peter? We have addressed those passages already several times . . .

Rev 12:7-10

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

(KJV)

Satan and his angels have "their place" in Heaven. That agrees with what our Lord Jesus taught about hell being across a "great gulf fixed" border in Paradise. And the apostle Paul in 2 Cor.12 related Paradise with the 'third heaven'.

Maybe it is just me . . . but what you are saying doesn't seem clear. You are saying the "angels have 'their place' in Heaven," which is a present tense. Is that what you believe?

When do you see the passage above being fulfilled?

Luke 16:23-26

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

(KJV)

What is 'hell' doing across that "great gulf fixed" border in Paradise? That's not something our Lord Jesus made up. He would not deceive us with that description about Paradise which is in Heaven.

Yes, paradise is in heaven . . . were do you perceive hell to be?

Luke 23:42-43

42 And he said unto Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.'

43 And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise.'

(KJV)

Since Jesus said that the malefactor would be with Him in Paradise that day, why is it so difficult for many to understand about Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison after His Resurrection, and leading those who believed out? Where did Jesus lead those out? Well, where did Jesus say the malefactor would be? With Him in Paradise.

Yes, Jesus said the thief would be with Him in paradise . . . He did not say He would lead him out of hell to get there. I didn't ask for a reasoning of logic as to where Jesus led the "prisoners," I asked for scriptures stating that such took place.

It is difficult to accept Jesus went to hell and preached because there is no sound biblical reason for it.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment

You still haven't explained how Hebrews 11:9, 10 agrees with what you are saying.

[Celt]

I do not believe they were speaking of people imprisoned in hell. Do you have any NT verses where the apostles taught such . . . other than the verses in Peter? We have addressed those passages already several times . . .

And what of Rev.20:7 that I quoted?

Maybe it is just me . . . but what you are saying doesn't seem clear. You are saying the "angels have 'their place' in Heaven," which is a present tense. Is that what you believe?

I think my point on the Rev.12 verses was pretty clear. Maybe you didn't take time to read those verses in context. Rev.12:6-17 has yet to occur. It's about the war in Heaven which is not yet (see also Dan.12:1). Some try to link those verses with the time when Satan first rebelled, but the Rev.12:6-17 verses are linked to the last days of tribulation. Rev.12:8 shows exactly where Satan and his angels will be cast down to the earth from. With the phrase "their place", it means there's a place in Heaven where Satan and his angels are assigned. Jesus gave more detail about that place in the Luke 16 description where the "rich man" was assigned. The picture is that hell is in Heaven, but across a "great gulf fixed" border in Paradise. The idea that hell is literally somewhere in the earth, etc., are men's traditions. William Blake's imaginings and art was very popular in that kind of idea, as also was Dante with his 'Inferno'.

Yes, Jesus said the thief would be with Him in paradise . . . He did not say He would lead him out of hell to get there. I didn't ask for a reasoning of logic as to where Jesus led the "prisoners," I asked for scriptures stating that such took place.

My point was, that our Lord Jesus can save regardless of where a soul is. Thinking that our Lord would never go to the pit to preach is like trying to limit His Authority in Heaven and over hell. Our Lord Jesus has the keys to both Heaven and hell (Rev.1:18). If Peter said our Lord went and preached to the "spirits in prison" after His Resurrection, then that's what Peter meant. It doesn't need a bunch of man's ornamentation and window dressings to interpret.

It is difficult to accept Jesus went to hell and preached because there is no sound biblical reason for it.

You mean there's no sound biblical reason per certain traditions of men that some hold to? Those I know who have the most problem with what Peter said of Jesus preaching to the "spirits in prison" are usually on the idea that our spirit knows nothing after flesh death, and is in the ground waiting for the resurrection of their flesh and spirit to be joined again. The question is, is that idea truly Biblical? Not really if one accepts what our Lord Jesus taught about the "rich man" and Lazarus in Luke 16.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment

You still haven't explained how Hebrews 11:9, 10 agrees with what you are saying.

I agree with Heb.9:27, yes, it's appointed for all born in the flesh to die only once, meaning to die in their flesh only once. There is such a thing as a "second death", which is the death of one's soul cast into the "lake of fire".

Concerning Hebrews 11, that's about the Faith of the OT saints. I assume you're referring to these verses...

Heb 11:39-40

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

(KJV)

Has Christ's Salvation manifested yet? No. Is He on earth with His Kingdom? No. That won't happen until His coming. That's when the rewards are handed out and those in Him are made perfect (i.e., the time of the manifesting of the sons of God that Paul taught in Rom.8). Just because a soul like that of Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom in Paradise doesn't mean Christ's Kingdom and Salvation had come there. Simply, the OT saints will not be made perfect without us.

[BlindSeeker]

I do not believe they were speaking of people imprisoned in hell. Do you have any NT verses where the apostles taught such . . . other than the verses in Peter? We have addressed those passages already several times . . .

And what of Rev.20:7 that I quoted?

What does that verse have to do with your concept of Jesus going to hell preaching to imprisoned people? Nothing from what I can tell . . .

Maybe it is just me . . . but what you are saying doesn't seem clear. You are saying the "angels have 'their place' in Heaven," which is a present tense. Is that what you believe?

I think my point on the Rev.12 verses was pretty clear. Maybe you didn't take time to read those verses in context. Rev.12:6-17 has yet to occur. It's about the war in Heaven which is not yet (see also Dan.12:1). Some try to link those verses with the time when Satan first rebelled, but the Rev.12:6-17 verses are linked to the last days of tribulation. Rev.12:8 shows exactly where Satan and his angels will be cast down to the earth from. With the phrase "their place", it means there's a place in Heaven where Satan and his angels are assigned. Jesus gave more detail about that place in the Luke 16 description where the "rich man" was assigned. The picture is that hell is in Heaven, but across a "great gulf fixed" border in Paradise. The idea that hell is literally somewhere in the earth, etc., are men's traditions. William Blake's imaginings and art was very popular in that kind of idea, as also was Dante with his 'Inferno'.

I disagree strongly with you about hell being in heaven.

Regarding the war . . . Jesus tells us the Devil would be judge, condemned and therefore cast down by the very thing which glorified Him and secured man

[BlindSeeker]

... And if you don't believe this then I know you have not search the scripturess for yourself but merely think or read another person thoughts and ideas about the subject . . .

I want to discuss like the apostles . . . I want someone to realize . . .

Great, another person who has never met me but knows so much about me and my study habits . . . and you want to discuss things like the Apostles?

Your confidence of being "worthy enough to know" is a bit much for me . . .

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Throughout my studing HELL is the lowest Part of Heaven,

Keturah,

Your simply going to have to start backing your assertions with Scriptural support please.

Please support your assertion above with Scripture.

Peace,

Dave

[BlindSeeker]

. . . I had asked a question that I am attempting myself to more fully understand which was: I've noticed that flesh always goes for the carnel, for the nasty, and not for the spiritual understanding. Example: Noah was nakedness......first explaination is physical but I have never heard anyone attempting to explain the spiritual meaning of Noah's nakedness. WHY IS THAT?

Here's one more question, Jesus said, IT IS FINISHED...what is?

Perhaps starting a new topic thread would be better for asking your questions so as not to hijack this thread . . .