Answering Questions

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

He's created for us

Au Contraire Mon Frer! You do err. This is because you have an incomplete picture of God and misunderstand His nature.

This is why;

Ro

[JIME]

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to save us from Himself, based on rules that He created Himself

This is how I would answer this person:

1) He created Himself?

God never created Himself, God always existed!!!

Rev. 1:8--

[ParanoidAndroid]

'the wages of sin is death'. this is not a rule; it is a governing truth such as the law of gravity or of entropy, etc.

Laws governing theories in science are based on experimentation. The "wages of sin is death" is a saying from scripture. It may be what you believe but in this case it is a statement of faith, not a demonstrable scientific law.

the goal is not to save us 'from God'. it is to save us from death. what is the last enemy that Jesus will put under his feet? death.

Perhaps you don't believe that Hell is a place of everlasting torment, but if you did then you would probably agree that God, in sacrificing Himself, was setting the stage to protect us from torment in the place He's created for us if we don't accept His sacrifice. Have I got something wrong? Is Hell not real? Did God not create it?

Hi Cycel,

I get the impression that you are not a Christian (though i won't necessarily condemn you for that - I think my views are slightly different to the fundamentalism we see on this site - if you see some of my posts you might see some of the differences in our views). In this respect, I would respond to your question in the following way: Hell is not real!

By that statement, what I mean is that we have"heaven" (the place where those who believe go), and we have the opposite of that. I don't think this opposite can be described as "hell" in the traditional sense, since "hell" is not a place that is ever defined as a place for non-believers. Its roots are held in the Roman Catholic Church, and particularly in the (fictional) writings of Dante, who writes about the torture and Hell found in the afterlife.

My view on "hell" (I put that in "" because I don't think the Bible ever intends them to be the same thing, it is just our cultural view of the opposite to heaven) is that it is total and complete destruction of the body (a literaly "second death" - much like atheists believe in, and I might add, many atheists take comfort in this view, in believing that this is all there is, and after this life, Nothing (capital "N")). I know I'm flying in the face of what many here believe, but my view is that those who have not found Christ will simply die, in the most literal view possible, becoming wormfood. And it is my opinion that the BIble supports me in this view. Take for example, the following views:

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ~ Matthew 7:13

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" ~ Romans 9:22

"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things." ~ Phillipians 3:19

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" ~ 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly" ~ 2 Peter 3:7

It appears obvious to me that "destruction" is what all the writers intended, particularly 2 Thessalonians (they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction). None of these views refer to "punishment", but rather to "destruction", which I think is clearly distinct. Add to this Revelation 20 which refers to the "Lake of Fire", which clearly states: Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14). The passage specifically states "THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH". Not a "second place of eternal torture". Not a "second place of eternal separation from God". Simply "Second Death". *note how "hades" is also cast into the Lake of fire, and note that this time they have left the word untranslated - ask yourself why this might be?*

All the passages that refer to burning in fires of hell have been, in my experience, either 1- parables, 2- misunderstandings of concepts, or 3- misinterpretations of words. There are three words in Greek that are translated as "Hell". These are Hades, (which translates "the grave", or "hole in the ground"), Gehenna (which is a literal place, a Valley just outside of Jerusalem where people burned their rubbish and sometimes their dead - you can still visit this place today), and tartaros (this is mentioned only once in the entire New Testament, and it is a place of torture, but only Satan and his demons are ever mentioned as going to this place - ie,no human is ever said to go to tartaros.

Yet, let's put some perspective on it. Many Christians I have seen have tried to show how "Hell" (regardless of the Greek word) all refer to the same place, and this same place is the place referred to in Revelation 20, which is somehow a place of punishment and torture, rather than a "second death", which is what the text describes - Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

When we come right down to it, we have four words (Hades, Gehenna, tartaros, and Sheol - Hebrew equivalent to Hades) and these are all translated as the same word. And then these are all encompassed as being the same place as the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation 20, which clearly states "Second Death".

Naturally, my view here will probably be different from most of the othe Christians on the board, but I don't see how "hell" as it is currently know, can be anything other than a Complete and Second Death. I don't think the soul is immortal, rather it is only immortal if it is given as a gift - hence why "eternal life" is constantly referred to as a "gift" (why would it be a "gift" if everyone had it and the only question is where that eternity was spent).

But I digress. It's late, and I'm very tired. I'm sure if it was a more reasonable hour I could state this more succinctly. But as it is, I hope I have provided some alternate point of view that is somewhat different to the fundamental Christainity that is prevalent on this board.

*that said, to my Christian brothers and sisters, I know we don't always agree. I think as long as we keep Christ in our hearts as the author and perfector of our Faith, then all else is details (though naturall this statement can be abused.... but again, I'm rambling if I go on this track). I'll stop there, and if anyone has clarifcations they want to ask, then by all means I will try and answer them over the next few days. All the bestk

~ Paranoid Android

[yesult]

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself, in order to save us from Himself, based on rules that He created Himself

When I read this in another Forum, I found myself restating the gospel, attempting to show how necessary Jesus' sacrifice was, but at every turn, this one sentence can counter any claims of Christ's sacrifice. Any thoughts on how we might approach this statement when dealing with it from non-Christians?

Any and all thoughts appreciated

~ PA

I agree with the pearls before swine comment if the person isn't actually interested in God and only taking stupid potshots. Simply because there's probably not much point.

However if they genuinely are actually interested - I would probably answer it like this: -

God made the rules, yes - and the rules are, that death is the penalty for sin because otherwise we would have sin in eternity. Sin is fundamentally what hurts us and what hurts other people - so the reason the penalty is death is because God is love and won't tolerate people doing that kind of thing around him. Why would he? He's perfect. Why would he allow sin (causing pain and suffering) in eternity?

Why create us then, as imperfect beings - with an adversary (the devil) and our own human nature against us, knowing that we would sin?

- Because otherwise we wouldn't have free will. And without free will - we're not people with individual personalities and the capacity to make choices - we're simply robots. Why would he want robots with him in eternity? He wants us. But he wants those of us who would choose to do right and want to not sin. How can he trust people in eternity who won't choose not to sin when tempted. Lucifer was perfect before he fell. So were the angels that fell with him.

However to choose not to sin - we have to experience it first, and the damage it does around us. But once we've done it and experienced the consequences of it - we've automatically fallen short of perfection and thus put a barrier up between the perfect (God) and ourselves. And as human beings, we're going to do that anyway, just because we're human beings.

So something has to be done to fix that up.

So why would God send one person to pay the death penalty for us, so that we don't have to?

- Because he's nice. Basically. lol. But he couldn't send a human being because we all sin. We're incapable of being perfect ourselves no matter how hard we try. So he had to do it.

So why not just waive the death penalty by getting us to face each other very somberly in a circle at church and do the hokey pokey instead, to recieve salvation. When we stick our right leg in we could say the word 'heaven' and all our sins could be washed away. I mean he could have done it that way - he didn't have to send Jesus to die for us. So why did he?

The bible tells us that to be christians we need to be followers of Jesus Christ, not just believe that he died for us. Scripture tells us that 'not simply they that say to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only those who do the will of the father in heaven will enter'. (would have to look up the exact wording, sorry) But we have to obey God, not just accept Christs sacrifice.

Christ walked this earth to show us how to live, not just to pay the death penalty for our sings. Dying was only part of it.

God could have 'waived' the rules but he decided to make his own son (one of the three who are all 'God' - the word 'God' describing who they are. (You can also think of it as like a last name.) They're all 'God' - what the word God means, but they're all three seperate beings) pay the price.

And so if we try to complain, 'oh God, but this is so hard, you don't understand' - (and when we stand before him at judgement). God can say, 'well actually I can.' Because Jesus was fully man as well as being God. He was created as mortal as we are, but the difference is that he had the holy spirit without measure. He had to pray, had to fast, had to obey, had to have faith, had to struggle. Suffered illness, grief and sorrow just as we do. Was tempted just as we are, but he never sinned.

That means once we're baptised in the holy spirit and led by the spirit of God as he was - we can activly pursue the kind of life that he lived. That's the following christ part. We follow his example to the best of our ability.

So the 'price' of sin is paid (the death penalty that seperates the sinful from the perfect) and if we want to do the right thing and keep choosing to - the best that we can by following God day by day - eternal life is opened to us. God has people with him for eternity who actively don't want to sin and won't when tempted because they've proven it by their attitude on earth. Once we're raised from the dead for eternity - the bible tells us that we will be like christ. That means perfect. Not with weak, human nature and no longer at the pull and influence of the devil - but our decisions and who we are will have already been formed during our earthly existence. So he has people, with unique and individual personalities and temperments, who've chosen righteousness and actively turned away from sin instead of robots. Friends instead of soulless, spiritual autoclones.

The bible tells us that we're going to be ruling and reigning with christ over creation forever. That's a big responsibilty for fallen human beings. God needs people who won't want to sin and will trust him. Otherwise how can he hand something like that over to us?

And some people might try to say - 'oh, but I'm a nice person'. I might have done some bad things but I'm a good person at heart. The problem with that is that even criminals on death row think that. Everybody thinks that they're fundamentally ok at heart. But if that was the case and God just allowed everybody into eternity the way they are - eternity would be like earth now. Because peoples natures wouldn't have changed.

Who would want to live forever with everybody like they are now. That would be hell, not heaven.

We have to choose God and choose righteousness.

That's why God made rules (we need them) and sent one of the 'God family' so to speak, to show the way and pay the price - so it all could be done.

My answer to that question.

Edited June 23, 2008 by yesult