Biblical tongues

[EricH]

I wanted to bring this up front one more time as food for thought. In post #17, I stated, an stand by, the following:

As for studying scripture about the gifts, I have done that for many years now. In my studies, I have found three different uses with tongues. First, there are tongues of other worldly languages, as in Acts 2, for the unbelievers. Then there are tongues for the church, as in 1 Corinthians 12, which is meant to edify the body. Lastly, there is the language that is used when the Holy Spirit prays for us when we do not know what to pray for, as we read in Romans 8:26, which is to edify the believer, between God and the one praying. The first two are meant to be spoken loudly for all to hear. The last is to be privately spoken, which is why it is said to be like moaning. Reference to this is 215 in the concordance, which describes it as being like groaning which are not capable of being adequately expressed in words.

Your Brother In Christ,

OneLight

I am not totally convinced that the Romans passage is a reference to a "type of tongues". Especially since the word "tongues" is not mentioned in the context

[stacey c]

1CORINTHIANS 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to Every man to profit withal."

that is a nice verse, but it actually says just the opposite if you read the next few verses...

8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

so, I would ask again, where does the Bible say that the gift of speaking in different kinds of tongues will be given to everyone?

So your saying the Bible contradicts it's self. Or maybe it's misinterpretation that's the contradiction. Look at verse 11 again "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." Who wills? The Spirit or the man seeking the gifts. So take it into account with verse 7 you see it doesnot contradict itself when we see that the Spirit desires every man to have the manifestation as the man wills or desires(seeks if you will) "WHATSOEVER you ask for, believing you shall recieve." Remember the manifestation of the gifts is for the profit of ALL. Why would the Spirit pick one person over another? He is no respecter of persons. He gives to all liberally.

The "he' in verse 11 cannot be the man. The grammar does not allow for it:

But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each one as He wills.

1 Corinthians 12:11 HCSB

The spirit is the subject of the sentence. The verb is "dsitributing". What you are proposing is that the subject be shifted mid-stream to the man. There is nothing in the grammar of the sentence that would support or allow that. Verse 7 does not support that:

A manifestation of the Spirit is given to each person to produce what is beneficial:

1 Corinthians 12:7 HCSB

There is nothing there about "as the man desires".

Help me understand how you arrived at this conclusion.

To be perfectly honest Erich this was taught in my old church several years ago by a very knowlegable pastor, but as I have had the gift since six years old, I would not find it wrong.

[stacey c]

So your saying the Bible contradicts it's self. Or maybe it's misinterpretation that's the contradiction.

no, I am not saying the Bible contradicts it's self, I am saying it does not anywhere teach that the gift of tongues is a gift for everyone.

Look at verse 11 again "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." Who wills? The Spirit or the man seeking the gifts.

Vs 11...All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

he is the Holy Spirit, not the man doing the seeking. we dont get to pick our gifts.

So take it into account with verse 7 you see it doesnot contradict itself when we see that the Spirit desires every man to have the manifestation as the man wills or desires(seeks if you will) "WHATSOEVER you ask for, believing you shall recieve."

no, it is not as the man wills, the Holy Spirit is not at our command to give us what we want, we are given the gifts based how the Holy Spirit determines. It seems somewhat egotistical to think we can order the Holy Sprit around.

Remember the manifestation of the gifts is for the profit of ALL. Why would the Spirit pick one person over another? He is no respecter of persons. He gives to all liberally.

Because not everyone needs the same gifts. Look at the next few verses where Paul talks about the body, being many different parts, just like the body of Christ is made up of many different parts. How could the common good be served by having a meeting full of people speaking different tongues and no one knowing what the other is saying. Verses 8-10 make it perfectly clear that not all gifts are for all people, there is no getting around this.

So now it's egotistical to stand on the promises of the Word to ask for Whatsoever believing, the Word has told us we can do this, nothing I made up. Who said it was ordering the Spirit around it's just standing on the promises of God. You say it sounds egotistical ask God why He put it in the Word.

[OneLight]

I wanted to bring this up front one more time as food for thought. In post #17, I stated, an stand by, the following:

As for studying scripture about the gifts, I have done that for many years now. In my studies, I have found three different uses with tongues. First, there are tongues of other worldly languages, as in Acts 2, for the unbelievers. Then there are tongues for the church, as in 1 Corinthians 12, which is meant to edify the body. Lastly, there is the language that is used when the Holy Spirit prays for us when we do not know what to pray for, as we read in Romans 8:26, which is to edify the believer, between God and the one praying. The first two are meant to be spoken loudly for all to hear. The last is to be privately spoken, which is why it is said to be like moaning. Reference to this is 215 in the concordance, which describes it as being like groaning which are not capable of being adequately expressed in words.

Your Brother In Christ,

OneLight

I am not totally convinces that the Romans passage is a reference to a "type of tongues". Especially since the word "tongues" is not mentioned in the context

That is true, Eric. The word tongues is not used. This is my personal interpretation. I say this because Romans 8:26 states ..

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

To me, this is the Spirits language, as the word language means communication, which is what He is doing in our behalf. When I used The Complete Word Study Dictionary for the New Testament to see what the word groaning meant, I found the following:

"In Romans 8:26, describing groanings which are not capable being adequately expressed in words."

As in many of todays words we use to describe what scripture means, they are not found in the specific verse. These groanings that the Holy Spirit is using, to me, is a language between Him and the Father. Hence, I use the word tongues to describe these groanings. Since it is not for the edifying of the Church, as the gift of tongues is to be, they are to be considered different from the gift. That is where I come up with the three different uses of tongues.

[EricH]

I wanted to bring this up front one more time as food for thought. In post #17, I stated, an stand by, the following:

As for studying scripture about the gifts, I have done that for many years now. In my studies, I have found three different uses with tongues. First, there are tongues of other worldly languages, as in Acts 2, for the unbelievers. Then there are tongues for the church, as in 1 Corinthians 12, which is meant to edify the body. Lastly, there is the language that is used when the Holy Spirit prays for us when we do not know what to pray for, as we read in Romans 8:26, which is to edify the believer, between God and the one praying. The first two are meant to be spoken loudly for all to hear. The last is to be privately spoken, which is why it is said to be like moaning. Reference to this is 215 in the concordance, which describes it as being like groaning which are not capable of being adequately expressed in words.

Your Brother In Christ,

OneLight

I am not totally convinces that the Romans passage is a reference to a "type of tongues". Especially since the word "tongues" is not mentioned in the context

That is true, Eric. The word tongues is not used. This is my personal interpretation. I say this because Romans 8:26 states ..

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

To me, this is the Spirits language, as the word language means communication, which is what He is doing in our behalf. When I used The Complete Word Study Dictionary for the New Testament to see what the word groaning meant, I found the following:

"In Romans 8:26, describing groanings which are not capable being adequately expressed in words."

As in many of todays words we use to describe what scripture means, they are not found in the specific verse. These groanings that the Holy Spirit is using, to me, is a language between Him and the Father. Hence, I use the word tongues to describe these groanings. Since it is not for the edifying of the Church, as the gift of tongues is to be, they are to be considered different from the gift. That is where I come up with the three different uses of tongues.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I am just totally convinced myself

[stacey c]

So now it's egotistical to stand on the promises of the Word to ask for Whatsoever believing, the Word has told us we can do this, nothing I made up. Who said it was ordering the Spirit around it's just standing on the promises of God. You say it sounds egotistical ask God why He put it in the Word.

no it is egotistical to think you can demand things of God.

could you please provide me the verse that says that we can have the gift of tounges if we just ask for them, I have looked for it and have not found it yet.

No one said anything about demanding, it's asking combined with faith to recieve. Acts 2:4 And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of in you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost."

[truthbringer]

This has always been a touchy subject for me. When I was young I accompanied my stepbrother to church. The man at the podium began speaking gibberish. I asked my brother what he was doing and he said the man was speaking "tongues". I could not comprehend why someone who is speaking "in the spirit" would not be understandable. At the time I was not saved nor was I familiar with scripture. Even so I fully expected that someone who were "channeling" (for lack of a better word) the Holy Spirit or overcome by the spirit would be easier, not harder, to understand for the sake of edification.

Now, being more familiar with scripture and having been baptized in the spirit I am still asking the same question. When the people begin uttering gibberish from the pulpit I cannot understand what they expect to achieve. I can only surmise that they wish to convince the congregation that they posses some special or elevated status in the eyes of God. Such actions seem to me to show a lack of humility and are comparable to dancing with snakes.

This writing at PBC is by far the most detailed explanation of the gift of (many) tongues and its purpose. Even before I was saved I seemed to understand that such a gift would be for the sakes of the unbelievers and that the unbelievers would, and should, be able to understand what was being said.

Knowing this I can't help but be even more disgusted than I have in the past at what lengths some people in the church are willing to stoop to in order to glorify themselves. PBC even explains the false gift of tongues and the effect it is having.

Please read over both articles/writings and share what you think.

The Minister that you heard speaking in tongues from the podium Could have either been

[1] praying in the spirit. 1 Corinthians 14: 14--15. Or [2] Edifying himself. 1Corinthians 14: 4. Both are between himself and God, Anyone who has been baptised in the Holy Ghost can do this. Jesus said, "The believer shall speak with new tongues".

Apart from Praying in tongues and edifying ourself, There are six other manifestation of tongues,

[1] Speaking a foriegn langauge that you have'nt learned. Acts 2: 4--11.

[2] A tongue that no-one understands, Only God. 1 Corinthians 14: 2.

[3] Tongues that will be interpreted. 1 Corinthians 12: 10.

[4] Tongues of Angels. 1 Corinthians 13: 1.

[5] Tongues that speak Mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14: 2.

These mysteries are secrets that will be revealed. One of the ways is "If you give a tongue that can be interpreted, Do, and God could reveal the mystery to you. 1 Corinthians 14: 13.

[6] Tongues that the Holy Ghost uses to interceed for us and through us. Romans 8: 26. [The meaning of, "Cannot be uttered" means], Cannot be spoken in our native language. You can even groan in the Spirit.

As for, " If any man speak, let it be by two or at the most three". It means, A tongue that will be interpreted, Because it goes on to say, "And that by course; and let one interpret". We have to keep the Bible in its right context.

The meaning of "Two or three", is, Two or three people give a message in tongues, But they can all give as many messages as God gives them. 1 Corinthians 14: 27, says, [Two or three people, not two or three tongues. Then someone will interpret [Only one at a time]

Edited August 22, 2008 by truthbringer

[truthbringer]

The Minister that you heard speaking in tongues from the podium Could have either been

[1] praying in the spirit. 1 Corinthians 14: 14--15. Or [2] Edifying himself. 1Corinthians 14: 4. Both are between himself and God, Anyone who has been baptised in the Holy Ghost can do this. Jesus said, "The believer shall speak with new tongues".

why would a Pastor be doing things that are just between him and God in front of the whole church?

in that same passage he also said...they will drive out demons, they will pick up snakes with their hands, when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all, they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well."

why is it when people bring up tounges, they dont bring up these things as well?

[1] Speaking a foriegn langauge that you have'nt learned. Acts 2: 4--11.

this one I agree with.

[2] A tongue that no-one understands, Only God. 1 Corinthians 14: 2.

it does not seem that Paul thinks this is a good thing.

[3] Tongues that will be interpreted. 1 Corinthians 12: 10.

by someone with a different gift.

[4] Tongues of Angels. 1 Corinthians 13: 1.

this passage does not say that people will speak in the tongues of Angels, it was a rhetorical question asked by Paul.

[5] Tongues that speak Mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14: 2.

These mysteries are secrets that will be revealed. One of the ways is "If you give a tongue that can be interpreted, Do, and God could reveal the mystery to you. 1 Corinthians 14: 13.

this one sounds about right?

[6] Tongues that the Holy Ghost uses to interceed for us and through us. Romans 8: 26. [The meaning of, "Cannot be uttered" means], Cannot be spoken in our native language. You can even groan in the Spirit.

that is one view of it. But it is the Spirit talking not us so I dont think this is really tongues.

[1] The Pastor isn't the only one who can do it, Every one who speaks in tongues can speak between themselve and God, If you read my post, you will see that I said that.

[2] I do cast out devils and heal the sick.

[3] You said Paul doesn't think its a good thing to speak in tongues that no one understands, God understands it and He thinks its a good thing.

[4] Paul says, "We speak with tongues of Angels", He didn't say, [iF I SPEAK], He said "Though I speak.

Your Bible may say, if, But the Greek meaning could be, "Though, Whosoever and Everyone".

If Paul didn't speak with tongues of Angels why would he mention it.

[5] it is the Holy Spirit speaking, But it is through our vioce, If we aren't speaking in our native language, we must be speaking in tongues.

Edited September 7, 2008 by truthbringer

[Floatingaxe]

The Minister that you heard speaking in tongues from the podium Could have either been

[1] praying in the spirit. 1 Corinthians 14: 14--15. Or [2] Edifying himself. 1Corinthians 14: 4. Both are between himself and God, Anyone who has been baptised in the Holy Ghost can do this. Jesus said, "The believer shall speak with new tongues".

why would a Pastor be doing things that are just between him and God in front of the whole church?

in that same passage he also said...they will drive out demons, they will pick up snakes with their hands, when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all, they will place their hands on sick people and they will get well."

why is it when people bring up tounges, they dont bring up these things as well?

[1] Speaking a foriegn langauge that you have'nt learned. Acts 2: 4--11.

this one I agree with.

[2] A tongue that no-one understands, Only God. 1 Corinthians 14: 2.

it does not seem that Paul thinks this is a good thing.

[3] Tongues that will be interpreted. 1 Corinthians 12: 10.

by someone with a different gift.

[4] Tongues of Angels. 1 Corinthians 13: 1.

this passage does not say that people will speak in the tongues of Angels, it was a rhetorical question asked by Paul.

[5] Tongues that speak Mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14: 2.

These mysteries are secrets that will be revealed. One of the ways is "If you give a tongue that can be interpreted, Do, and God could reveal the mystery to you. 1 Corinthians 14: 13.

this one sounds about right?

[6] Tongues that the Holy Ghost uses to interceed for us and through us. Romans 8: 26. [The meaning of, "Cannot be uttered" means], Cannot be spoken in our native language. You can even groan in the Spirit.

that is one view of it. But it is the Spirit talking not us so I dont think this is really tongues.

[1] The Pastor isn't the only one who can do it, Every one who speaks in tongues can speak between themselve and God, If you read my post, you will see that I said that.

[2] I do cast out devils and heal the sick.

[3] You said Paul doesn't think its a good thing to speak in tongues that no one understands, God understands it and He thinks its a good thing.

[4] Paul says, "We speak with tongues of Angels", He didn't say, [iF I SPEAK], He said "Though I speak.

[5] it is the Holy Spirit speaking, But it is through our vioce, If we aren't speaking in our native language, we must be speaking in tongues.

Amen!

[OnFire4God]

I have read through this whole post as well as other posts on this topic that are now closed. I understand that many people believe different things about this topic (and was actually surprised to see some people arguing about it! We are all one in Christ, no?)

I certainly believe that gifts of tongues are prevelent today. However, it wasn't until about a year ago that I was shown through scripture that tongues are for every believer. Has anyone ever had an experience where they first thought that tongues was not for them, and later received? This is something that I've been struggeling with, I've read all the scripture, all the support. I've even asked for this gift and thought I've received it yet sometimes when I think back I really do think I made up what i spoke that day. This really plays on my mind. I don't want to stifle something that God wants to give to me, but I want to walk in biblical truth. How can I accept a gift if I'm not even sure that its there for the taking? And to be honest...when I hear people speaking in tongues... I ALSO think they're making it up. And that's sad, I don't want to think that, but its almost like I can't help my thoughts sometimes. And to be even more honest, it sort of scares me. I get so mad about this topic that I can't even talk to people about it in person. I'm really struggeling, if anyone has any wisdom, words of comfort, or has ever been in this situation I would love to hear about it.

(note: I DO believe tongues exist, trying to convince me otherwise does no good, and please, no more arguing! Gah!)