Losing salvation

[godrulz]

You are right. If we love God and know Him it would be the rare exception to drift to the point of turning one's back on God. There is no reason for this to happen apart from selfishness and the enemy of our souls deceiving us.

[Khristeeanos]

One aspect of salvation often overlooked is the importance of forgiving:

Matthew 6:14-15

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.  But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

It could not be any more clear to me. If you hold a non-forgiving heart towards someone, God will not forgive you of your sins.

Last time I checked, the word "IF" means a condition must be met.

[keslc]

One sin may hinder intimacy, but does not sever the relationship (hence the exhortation for Christians to confess their sins in I John). One loses their salvation (God alone knows where that point is crossed) when you persist in rejecting Christ as Lord and Savior to your death bed. It is possible to know God and later reject Him due to the nature of free will and relationship. You return to living for Self rather than God (ultimate choice) reflected in an ungodly life. cf. marriage, argument, divorce. Calvinism's TULIP is a false assumption and should not be assumed to be biblical.

this is one post of several very good posts, godrulz! I am with you on all of these points!

[jmwhalen]

Godrulz writes:

"The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentance, faith, continuance in the faith (see other set of verses that talk about the conditionality of salvation, in addition to the ones about the security of a present-tense believer). Conditions are not works. We are not saved by works....."

"We are secure IF we continue to abide in Him."

________________________________________________

You fail to understand the cross work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and it's finality. In fact, this is why the question arises, "Is once saved always saved" a true statement?

I realize that this topic deserves more than just a few "random" verses thrown out in support of the doctrine of eternal security, but I will just focus on a few points:

1. 2 Cor 5:17-19 : "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

When Christ died two thousand years ago all our sin was still in the future. He paid for all sin, for all men, for all time. God is not imputing (charging to one's account) sin to anyone today. We are not saved by getting rid of our sin but by belief of the truth of the gospel which is "Christ died FOR our sins, was buried and rose again the third day"=the gospel of Christ- 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

2. The seal and pledge of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption in Christ by God.

In simple terms, a symbol is something that represents something else. Two of the symbols of the Holy Spirit are as a seal, and as a pledge.

As a Seal:

" Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring: for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, MAY NO MAN REVERSE (emphasis mine)." Esther 8:8

"And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might NOT BE CHANGED(emphasis mine) concerning Daniel." Daniel 6:17

"So she wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles that were in his city, dwelling with Naboth." 1 Kings 21:8

Most frequently, a seal was a signet ring with a design or imprint on it peculiar to the owner and to authenticate official documents. Thus, a signet ring is a finger ring that bears an engraved seal(Genesis 41:42) For example, when the king's ring was pressed against the hot wax that sealed a document, the sealed scroll then bore an imprint that IDENTIFIED it with the king. This would be similar in our times to our signature on a check. No document was valid without it. It was used in the following ways:

-It indicated a FINISHED transaction": In Jeremiah 32:9-11, the prophet Jeremiah purchases the field Hanameel with money as the LORD God had instructed him to do. After the price was set,, paid for, and the deed was signed, he sealed the deed. The seal was "evidence"(Jer. 32:10,11,12,14) that the purchase was official and complete-it was a FINISHED transaction(see also John 17:4 and 19:30).

This is what Paul is telling us in 2 Cor. 1:22-God the Father and God the Son settled the matter of our salvation between themselves-we partake of the FINISHED work. God, at this point, gives us the Holy Spirit, showing us that salvation is a completed, finished transaction.

-It obtains security: Notice in Esther 8:8, "...May no man reverse....", and Daniel 6:17, "...not be changed....". While the king was in power and lived, no one could change what was sealed by his own ring. Seals were the universal means of safeguarding, "securing" letters, treasures, "guaranteeing" legal evidence. This carried the authority of the king . In Daniel 6:15,17 the strict etiquette of the Persian court obliged the king never to revoke an order once given-the lion's den was sealed. In Matthew 27:66, the Lord Jesus Christ's tomb was sealed so that His body would be undisturbed-"...and made the sepulchre SURE, SEALING(emphasis mine) the stone". The context here shows that this was an official sealing that was intended to be so arranged that the seal could not be broken without detection. In the Revelation 7:2-4, one hundred and forty four thousand servants are sealed so they will be protected, secured from the impending judgement. In the Revelation 20:3, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years-his tenure here is made CERTAIN by the sealing of the pit. In all these cases, the seal is affixed in order to make sure, guarantee, someone or something is SECURE. Paul again uses this figure of the seal to the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13, "...ye WERE(emphasis mine-past tense) sealed with that Holy Spirit of PROMISE(emphasis mine-guarantee of security)", and again in Ephesians 4:30, "...ye are sealed UNTO(emphasis mine-notice this is secure until we receive our redeemed bodies!) the day of redemption." The same principle applies to the King of Kings. God has sealed believers of today into the Body of Christ and now nothing can reverse that sealing. It is a secure seal-absolute security.

-It indicates ownership: Again in Jeremiah 32:11, 12 explains of evidence of a completed purchase being taken to Baruch. In verse 13, 14, 15 Jeremiah tells Baruch to take the evidences of the purchase and put then in an earthen vessel- Jeremiah has the right to do this because he has OWNERSHIP of the land. In Haggai 2:23, "In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have CHOSE(emphasis mine) thee, saith the LORD of hosts." And hence, "For ye are bought with a price...."(1 Cor. 6:20)

It is used to identify something: In 2 Timothy 2:19 , the Holy Spirit through Paul says "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that ARE HIS(emphasis mine)." God has ownership of a believer. The Holy Spirit has sealed the purchase. Thus, just as the king's imprint IDENTIFIED it with the king, the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit IDENTIFIES us as the bought property, by blood, of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As a Pledge:

In 2 Cor. 5:5 we are told that God has given us "...the earnest of the Spirit.", and in Ephesians 1:14 we are told that the Holy Spirit "...is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possess...." The word "earnest" means "pledge", that is, first installment, deposit, or "down payment". This is a price laid down in advance to secure legal claim to an article. The purchaser was under legal obligation to make further payments until the purchase was complete. Thus, the LORD God is telling us that the presence of the Holy Spirit as a pledge is a symbol of telling us 1. "I claim you-you are my property"-again, 1 Cor. 6:19-20 builds on this theme,and 2. "I obligate myself-I guarantee to complete My work in every believer".

The Holy Spirit's presence guarantees our inheritance per Eph. 1:14. Our inheritance encompasses all that the Lord Jesus Christ(including His righteousness) is and all that the Lord Jesus Christ has- "And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ...."(Romans 8:17). This is fully guaranteed by God the Father, and the "warranty" is the Holy Spirit Himself.

Per Ephesians 1:13, the sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place as a result of a person believing the gospel of salvation. Notice in this verse is that upon believing the gospel we are "sealed" into our salvation. This sealing takes place by the Holy Spirit, which is the third member of the Godhead. God promises us that upon our belief in the gospel, He will seal us into the Body of Christ.The Holy Spirit takes us and "places", or IDENTIFIES us into one body- the Body of Christ. This is called the baptism BY the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 states "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Please notice here that we are not baptized into the Holy Spirit(as at Pentecost where the Lord Jesus Christ is the baptizer), but rather the Holy Spirit is baptizing us into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13, 27). Ephesians 4:4 says, "There is one body" which is the Body of Christ, and which we are placed into, IDENTIFIED into, by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 states that there is "one baptism", and the baptism BY the Holy Spirit is this one baptism, which is our seal of salvation. Also notice that this is not a water baptism-it is a spiritual baptism(IDENTIFICATION) since it is performed by the Holy Spirit. The word "baptized" is often assumed to always be associated with water. However, we can conclude that this is not a water baptism- it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. If we are to believe that the baptism referred to in I Corinthians 12:13 is with water, then we must also believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation. However, we know that NO physical works are required for salvation by reading Ephesians 2:8, and 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Thus, it is the baptism by the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. We know this because it is through our baptism into the Body of Christ that we receive IDENTIFICATION with Christ

[Khristeeanos]

John M. Whalen,

It is obvious to me that this doctrine is extremely important to you.

I have to wonder why....

When I believed what you do now, and used these same arguments, I was ensnared in sins that are listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8.

Don't you know that the grace of God teaches us to deny sin and to live upright and holy lives in this present age while we wait for Jesus to come back?

Titus 2:11-14

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works.

Since God's grace teaches us to live holy lives, a doctrine like OSAS/eternal security is a useless doctrine........unless someone is using it as a license to sin.

Jude 3-4

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation that we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.  For certain men, whose condemnation was written about long ago, have secretly slipped in among you.  They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Amen DIME!

Most OSAS people i have met put more faith into the doctrine of "eternal security" rather then the one who can keep them saved and from falling away.

Edited June 11, 2004 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Guest Calamity]

DIME:

Since

God's grace teaches us to live holy lives, a doctrine like OSAS/eternal security is a useless doctrine........unless someone is using it as a license to sin.

OOh, ooooooohhhhhh, ooooooooohhhh!!! :suspect: There it is again. LICENSE TO SIN. Dime, you shoud know better than that by now. Is this the best rebuttal you can come up with for JM's post? I do, however, believe we should ask forgiveness for our sins, but I also strongly, very strongly believe in OSAS.

Jedi:

Most OSAS people i have met put more faith into the doctrine of "eternal security" rather then the one who can keep them saved and from falling away.

Jedi, I believe in OSAS because I have faith in the One who has my salvation sealed.

[jmwhalen]

Dime Ministries writes:

"When I believed what you do now, and used these same arguments, I was ensnared in sins that are listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8.

Don't you know that the grace of God teaches us to deny sin and to live upright and holy lives in this present age while we wait for Jesus to come back?

QUOTE

Titus 2:11-14

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works. "

______________________

You, sir, confuse sanctification with salvation, service with sonship, and do not understand grace, nor the doctrine of justification.. The Titus passage teaches us that our present salvation through the grace of God instructs us, motivates us in our walk(sanctification).

The biblical order is Sonship, then service, not the works-based performance system("religion") of service to become Sons(Roman Catholic Church, Mormons, Islam............... Eternal life is not a reward for doing good, but a gift to those who deserve death. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to make bad people good, He came to make DEAD people ALIVE.

If you did understand grace, you would not be asking the LORD God "how much I owe you?" for this gift. You are making a claim on God by basing your acceptance by Holy God of yourself on what you have done or will do, instead of what was already done for you 2000 years ago. Why is it that humans are happy to receive a gift from a loved one without insulting that loved one by asking "How much do I owe you?", but refuse the same to our Creator, Redeemer, and Saviour?

I have been forgiven and justified(these are not the same)-declared rigtheous. God the Father sees me "in Christ"-I have the righteousness of God "in Him".

You can lay no charges to me, or any other believer who is now "in Christ" by belief in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.

You say "I was ensnared in sins that are listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8." Yeh, and the Corinthian believers were the most carnal group of Christians Paul dealt with. But notice that Paul had the most severe condemnation for those in Galatia who were trapped in a works-based performance system(placed those legalists under a curse)-He never once questioned the Corinthian believer's salvation! He called them SAINTS.

You apparently do not understand the GOOD NEWS, and the finality of the cross. If you are to stand in front of the LORD God when you leave this life in your own righteousness, you had better have a good attorney.

In Christ,

John Whalen

[Born Again]

So here's my take on OSAS- I don't believe it. I will not back it up with scripture (since most has already done so), but instead with my experience (short version! ) I was saved at an early age, but never made God 1#. I had no disregard for Him or His Word- I only prayed when I needed something- I drank- I cussed- didn't go to church- I didn't even like it when my sister talked about her church or when she talked about how awesome God is (she doesn't know it, but she used to get on my nerves with it :x: - the truth comes out!). If I would have died during that time, I believe I would have not gone to Heaven. The Rapture used to scare the pants off of me, but now I welcome it.

The Holy Spirit didn't leave me alone- the last few years I felt a conviction I ignored (again, I believe I would have gone to Hell). I finally gave in (how stupid of me not to do it sooner!) and now I look back on my experience with this new belief (I was raised Baptist, and they believe OSAS). I believe you can lose your salvation, but the Holy Spirit will keep on convicting. How long? I don't know. God knew I would finally give in! :il:

[Khristeeanos]

If OSAS is true, then why did The Apostle Paul tell the SAINTS in Galatia that it was possible for them to still miss out on heaven?

Galatians 5:19-21; 6:7-10

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.  I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God...Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.  A man reaps what he sows.  The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.  Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.  Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Gotta run.