women to keep silent

[BlindSeeker]

I think i have written quiet a few post on this subject of submission to husbands and woman's equality. I never disputed equality in status, deed or even intelligence.. have even given the example ofthe Trinity where all 3 persons in the Godhead is equal but in submission, the son in submission to the Father, the Holy Spirit in submission the the Son.

There are more that two verses in the NT on that fact, already listed in prevous post:

1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man:

1Co 11:9 for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:

1Co 11:10 for this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels. 1Co 11:11

Eph 5:22 Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Ti 2:9 In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment;

1Ti 2:10 but (which becometh women professing godliness) through good works.

1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.

1Pe 3:5 For after this manner aforetime the holy women also, who hoped in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:

1Pe 3:6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose children ye now are, if ye do well, and are not put in fear by any terror.

1Pe 3:7 Ye husbands, in like manner, dwell with your wives according to knowledge, giving honor unto the woman, as unto the weaker vessel, as being also joint-heirs of the grace of life; to the end that your prayers be not hindered.

1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.

1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;

1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:

1Ti 2:15 but she shall be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

Surely there are many other scripture too many to quote than the two you claimed exist and it is taught by diffrerent apostles Peter, who is not even the Chavenistic Paul as many claim.. My believe is scripturally based..

Seem scripturally sound to me.

[BlindSeeker]

Surely there are many other scripture too many to quote than the two you claimed exist and it is taught by diffrerent apostles Peter, who is not even the Chavenistic Paul as many claim.. My believe is scripturally based..

All your verses show is that the man is the head, that a wife is to submit to her husband. That is hardly a re-enforcement of the "silent" and "no teaching" prohibitions.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

You do realize that that verse has an "I" in it, right? That "I" by itself gives the verse a whole other meaning than what the "lets keep our woman sitting in the nursery and playing the organ" advocates keep saying it means. It means Paul did not allow a woman to teach. It is not a directive to every church for the entire church age, it means exactly what it says, that Paul didn't allow women to teach. And it does not mean Paul was "chauvanistic" it just means that for whatever reason, he did not allow women to teach.

If this was merely Paul's words, why then does scripture follow with -

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Does not Adam represent all men? and Eve all women?

[Floatingaxe]

1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

1Co 11:13 Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God unveiled?

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1Co 11:16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

I was doing my Bible study and i am not able to understand if Paul gave this prohibition for a woman to keep silent or not to teach in public due to a tradional Jewish prohibition against women speaking in public. Is this the same prohibition for women to have short hair or the veil themselves? Why is this commandment not enforced in modern day churches?

Can I have a Jewish perspective on this?

Hi Given New Name

You can't have a Jewish perspective from me, because I'm a Gentile, but why would you need one? There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28) Despite what Paul writes about the configuration of the synagogue (males on one side, females on the other, and yes, it was disruptive to the church service if the wives yelled across the aisle "what does the preacher mean by that, honey"), or what he writes about a pet tradition of his, (about women having to have long hair), the truth of the new covenant is that we are ALL, UNCONDITIONALLY EQUAL in the sight of our Lord Jesus Christ. That point, that Paul made to the legalistic Galatians, that GOD HAS ELIMINATED ALL DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN US, AND WE ARE ALL EQUAL IN GOD'S SIGHT, overrides any comments he made about long hair, or women speaking out of turn in church.

If you want to make an issue about women supposedly not being able to minister in church, or even speak, and try to insist they all wear scarves on their heads (the HAIR, by the way, is the covering, not the scarf), then all I can say to you is good luck, because the WHOLE CONTEXT of new covenant teaching is that God has made us all equal, and all the legalism will do is make enemies out of your sisters in church.

Chill, bro, stay married long enough and you'll realize how often you need your wife's advice more than she needs yours. And ask yourself some questions, allow yourself to think outside your box. For instance-Why did God choose Mary, not Joseph, as the source of His conception? Why did Jesus show himself to Mary Magdalene first after His resurrection, instead of the male disciples? Why did big-talking, but scared walking Peter deny Jesus, when dear mother Mary was right at the foot of the cross, yet wasn't touched by the Roman soldiers? The women got it, but the men had to be told over and over again, and sometimes even had to be punished before they complied with God. Zechariah the priest should have known from scriptures that a woman around the same age range of his wife Elizabeth became miraculously pregnant (Sarah, the wife of Abraham). Mary, the mother of Jesus, had no scriptural precedent to draw on when the angel told her she would, as a virgin, be able to bear a child, by the Holy Spirit. As soon as the angel explained it to her, she enthusiasticly said "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38)

Sometimes men think and act with their hormones, not their brains. And therein lies the problem.

Peace to you, in Christ

soshine

I love your response. Blessings to you!

[Floatingaxe]

The question posed is brother Shiloh, if it is a command, even if it is not a universal command, if it promotes modesty, why not do it.

The sciptures indicate both to keep silent and head covering are to show outwardly in a sign of submission to her husband or to the man of the house.. thats all there is to the command.

In Maaysia, Islam makes it mandatory ofr a woman to dress modestly! Although i myself think it is a matter of choice i do think that that command is in keeping with scriptues. Look at all the outrageous clothes that bare all in hollywood movies and the immodesty done in the name of liberalsm.

so, should women speak at all once inside the church building? or should they be silent like Paul commanded?

Women are to speak just as any man should speak... all in order. It was the "out of order" speech that Paul was admonishing about! Women are to exhort, teach and prophesy--and all to the congregation and guess what? In church, too!

Oh my!

Oh dear.. I was hoping for a discussion sans the sarcasm.

Women are to speak just as any man should speak... all in order. It was the "out of order" speech that Paul was admonishing about! Women are to exhort, teach and prophesy--and all to the congregation and guess what? In church, too!

Where is the scriptural quote?

Where is it said otherwise? Are we to believe men can call out in service? Are we to believe women cannot prophesy (which is teaching/preaching, also) when Paul distinctly said women are to do so?

[givennewname]

The question posed is brother Shiloh, if it is a command, even if it is not a universal command, if it promotes modesty, why not do it.

The sciptures indicate both to keep silent and head covering are to show outwardly in a sign of submission to her husband or to the man of the house.. thats all there is to the command.

In Maaysia, Islam makes it mandatory ofr a woman to dress modestly! Although i myself think it is a matter of choice i do think that that command is in keeping with scriptues. Look at all the outrageous clothes that bare all in hollywood movies and the immodesty done in the name of liberalsm.

so, should women speak at all once inside the church building? or should they be silent like Paul commanded?

Women are to speak just as any man should speak... all in order. It was the "out of order" speech that Paul was admonishing about! Women are to exhort, teach and prophesy--and all to the congregation and guess what? In church, too!

Oh my!

Oh dear.. I was hoping for a discussion sans the sarcasm.

Women are to speak just as any man should speak... all in order. It was the "out of order" speech that Paul was admonishing about! Women are to exhort, teach and prophesy--and all to the congregation and guess what? In church, too!

Where is the scriptural quote?

Where is it said otherwise? Arebelieve men can call out in service? we to Are we to believe women cannot prophesy (which is teaching/preaching, also) when Paul distinctly said women are to do so?

Women are to speak just as any man should speak... all in order.

I cannot find any scripture where women are to teach in church. they are ask to instruct their children at home like Timothy's mother. Like i pointed out, yes the Lord Jesus had many women followers, none were asked to teach. I have not seen a single exhortation for woman to teach in church.. if there are references, i stand to be corrected.

Arebelieve men can call out in service? we to

I believe the answer is no as Paul have said. How can anyone be hard above all the shouting? BTW I am not a pentecostalist so i wouldn't be the best to answer this. I find the noise too excessive for my own private devotions, but that is my own personal taste..

Jewish custom requires a quorum of at least 12 men and a rabbi to form a synagogoe, no matter how many women are present. The Rabbi is usually a male. That is why Paul could not find a synagogoe in the city of phillippi and had to preach to women washing clothes at the river side.

[givennewname]

1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

1Co 11:13 Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God unveiled?

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1Co 11:16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

I was doing my Bible study and i am not able to understand if Paul gave this prohibition for a woman to keep silent or not to teach in public due to a tradional Jewish prohibition against women speaking in public. Is this the same prohibition for women to have short hair or the veil themselves? Why is this commandment not enforced in modern day churches?

Again i have written ad infinatum that i do consider women equal in Christ............... i don't believe that they lack anything certainly equal in faith, equal in ability and deed.

ust believe they are to be in submission to their husbands in keeping with scripture.. quotations are all provided. If any do not like that teaching,they can use a pair of scissors and exise it from their Bible,, they will be left with quite an empty Bible because this theme does not run only inthe NT, it is across the OT as well.

I don't think anyone is arguing against women submitting to their husbands as the head of the house. Implicit in the commandment to women to submit is a command for men to be the kind of man worth submitting to. "It takes two to tango" as they say. The problems cannot be all on one side and generally speaking, they aren't.

As long as the man is worth submitting to and is not lording his position over his wife, and is treating her wth compassion and respect and loving her sacrificially, I don't know of a woman on the earth (save the ultra-radical feminists) who would not willingly submit to such a husband.

I totally agree with you Bro Shiloh. Wives are asked to submit to their husbands and husbands love their wife..

The ideal situation.. but as we know, ideal situations don't exist in reality.

[Guest shiloh357]

1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

1Co 11:13 Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God unveiled?

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1Co 11:16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

I was doing my Bible study and i am not able to understand if Paul gave this prohibition for a woman to keep silent or not to teach in public due to a tradional Jewish prohibition against women speaking in public. Is this the same prohibition for women to have short hair or the veil themselves? Why is this commandment not enforced in modern day churches?

Again i have written ad infinatum that i do consider women equal in Christ............... i don't believe that they lack anything certainly equal in faith, equal in ability and deed.

ust believe they are to be in submission to their husbands in keeping with scripture.. quotations are all provided. If any do not like that teaching,they can use a pair of scissors and exise it from their Bible,, they will be left with quite an empty Bible because this theme does not run only inthe NT, it is across the OT as well.

I don't think anyone is arguing against women submitting to their husbands as the head of the house. Implicit in the commandment to women to submit is a command for men to be the kind of man worth submitting to. "It takes two to tango" as they say. The problems cannot be all on one side and generally speaking, they aren't.

As long as the man is worth submitting to and is not lording his position over his wife, and is treating her wth compassion and respect and loving her sacrificially, I don't know of a woman on the earth (save the ultra-radical feminists) who would not willingly submit to such a husband.

I totally agree with you Bro Shiloh. Wives are asked to submit to their husbands and husbands love their wife..

The ideal situation.. but as we know, ideal situations don't exist in reality.

Of course they do. They don't exist everywhere, but they do exist.

[givennewname]

1Co 14:35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

1Co 11:13 Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God unveiled?

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1Co 11:16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

I was doing my Bible study and i am not able to understand if Paul gave this prohibition for a woman to keep silent or not to teach in public due to a tradional Jewish prohibition against women speaking in public. Is this the same prohibition for women to have short hair or the veil themselves? Why is this commandment not enforced in modern day churches?

Again i have written ad infinatum that i do consider women equal in Christ............... i don't believe that they lack anything certainly equal in faith, equal in ability and deed.

ust believe they are to be in submission to their husbands in keeping with scripture.. quotations are all provided. If any do not like that teaching,they can use a pair of scissors and exise it from their Bible,, they will be left with quite an empty Bible because this theme does not run only inthe NT, it is across the OT as well.

I don't think anyone is arguing against women submitting to their husbands as the head of the house. Implicit in the commandment to women to submit is a command for men to be the kind of man worth submitting to. "It takes two to tango" as they say. The problems cannot be all on one side and generally speaking, they aren't.

As long as the man is worth submitting to and is not lording his position over his wife, and is treating her wth compassion and respect and loving her sacrificially, I don't know of a woman on the earth (save the ultra-radical feminists) who would not willingly submit to such a husband.

I totally agree with you Bro Shiloh. Wives are asked to submit to their husbands and husbands love their wife..

The ideal situation.. but as we know, ideal situations don't exist in reality.

Of course they do. They don't exist everywhere, but they do exist.

Marriage is a siuation where two born again still spirtually inperfect couple live. Compromise is still needed even if both are claiming to walk in the Lord.

[Floatingaxe]

In the Upper Room at Pentecost, of the 120 people there, I am sure many were women. Jesus' disciples included women--not the 12---but his many followers were able women. Of those 120, ALL began preaching! 3000 converts were the result, and it was a great start to the resultant CHURCH of Jesus Christ! You cannot say women cannot teach. Paul was speaking about a particular woman who was disruptive, as many believe.

[givennewname]

In the Upper Room at Pentecost, of the 120 people there, I am sure many were women. Jesus' disciples included women--not the 12---but his many followers were able women. Of those 120, ALL began preaching! 3000 converts were the result, and it was a great start to the resultant CHURCH of Jesus Christ! You cannot say women cannot teach. Paul was speaking about a particular woman who was disruptive, as many believe.

I think i have addressed this isue in a seperate posting.. To preach we have the great cmmision given in Matthew to preach the gospel to the ends of the world inrrespective of sex, gender nor age..

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Again we are not talking about a womans ability to preach, teach ect. We are talking about a woman being in submission to husbands and not to teach from the pulpit nor to be in position of authority.