When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[nebula]

G. Just because people desire something does not mean that God will give it to them. The desire of the Orthodox Jews for a temple on the Mount is irrelevant. Only Messiah can build the final temple. He did that. See I Peter. WE are the Temple; a temple made without hands. The Orthodox would have the Temple they desire if they would simply believe on Yeshua, but they adamantly refuse. The re-institution of sacrifices of any merit is an insult to the Blood of Jesus and HE will have none of it.

Please don't tell me you are into Replacement Theology.

[Bold Believer]

No, not permanent replacement theology. I do however believe in temporary replacement.

Mt 21:43 "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruits.

Obviously, the kingdom WAS taken away. A second witness: Acts

Acts 1:6 says: Therefore, when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, are you now restoring the kingdom to Yisra'el?" This implies that the kingdom had indeed been taken away.

There will be a restoration in the future, to the remnant elected by Grace. (Romans 11)

[Bold Believer]

We know from history that the Jewish War with Rome was formally engaged in Spring, A.D. 67, and was won with the collapse of the Temple in August, A.D. 70. This is a period of forty-two months, which fits the precise measurement of John's prophecy. I therefore submit that the tribulation began in Spring of AD 67 and ended in August AD 70.

[nebula]

We know from history that the Jewish War with Rome was formally engaged in Spring, A.D. 67, and was won with the collapse of the Temple in August, A.D. 70. This is a period of forty-two months, which fits the precise measurement of John's prophecy. I therefore submit that the tribulation began in Spring of AD 67 and ended in August AD 70.

And this fits in with Revelation . . . how?

[nebula]

No, not permanent replacement theology. I do however believe in temporary replacement.

Mt 21:43 "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruits.

Obviously, the kingdom WAS taken away. A second witness: Acts

Acts 1:6 says: Therefore, when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, are you now restoring the kingdom to Yisra'el?" This implies that the kingdom had indeed been taken away.

There will be a restoration in the future, to the remnant elected by Grace. (Romans 11)

Hoo-boy. . . OK.

Well, I'm not going to hijack this thread by challenging this.

Just stating that I object, though.

BTW:

When I swing my sword...duck, I haven't quite learned to master the weight of it yet.

Why would you swing your sword around people you aren't intending on hitting?

And why would you tell those you intend on hitting to duck?

[Guest MarkB]

I have asked this question in replies in other threads to no avail, but to know how someone interprets Revelation in its different events determines their stance on the rapture of the Church; pre, mid, or post tribulation.

To make sure you understand what I am asking, when does the seven years of tribulation start according to scripture. Please give scriptures or explanations of events with scripture to substantiate your views.

Just the facts folk and no arguments - We be brethren

Thanks to all in Jesus' name - larry2

An Urgent Call To The Bride Of Christ!

FROM THE MOUNTAIN PROPHECIES

BOOK TWELVE

Chapter Fifty

[Celt]

I don't think knowing when the tribulation starts per God's Word is that difficult, IF we allow God's Word to interpret itself.

Per Daniel 11, a vile person is to make a league (pact, covenant) in Jerusalem and a "small people" (small group) will be with him in foresaking the Holy Covenant. And he will place the abomination that maketh desolate.

In the Book of Daniel what was the main abomination that got Daniel and his fellows into trouble during their Babylon captivity? A golden idol image of Nebuchadnezzar which he had setup for all to bow in worship at the sound of the psalter. In Revelation 13, what is it that will be setup for all to bow in worship, and to receive its mark? Another idol image of the beast.

It's also simple to know who 'the' antichrist is, for the 1 John 2:18 verse has both 'antichrist' in the singular tense, and in the plural tense. Common sense says to ask per The Bible who the main antichrist has been all along, which can only be Satan since he was the first to rebel against God in wanting to put himself in God's stead. The word 'antichrist' per the Greek can also mean 'in place of' Christ, or 'instead of' Christ, not just 'against' Christ. Either way, the devil has been the top paramount in that working.

In Rev.12:6-17 we are told Satan is to be booted out of Heaven down to the earth along with his angels, and is given in association with tribulation timings (like the 1260 days of Daniel).

In Rev.11:7, we are told that "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" will kill God's "two witnesses" He sends in the last days to Jerusalem.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, the apostle Paul told us the "son of perdition", "man of sin", "that Wicked" will come first to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. And many will 'fall away' (become apostate) because of that event. In that same Chapter, Paul says Christ will come to destroy that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming.

In Rev.9:11 forward, we are told the locust army has a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, and his name is Abaddon in Hebrew, and Apollyon in Greek, which both mean 'Destroyer'. On the 6th trumpet, and 2nd woe, that locust army is to be loosed on earth for a period of "five months".

Per Matthew 24, our Lord Jesus showed the "great tribulation" is to be shortened for His elect's sake. That means the "last week" of Daniel has been shortened. We know Christ was talking about the days just prior to His return in Matthew 24, because that prophecy includes His coming and the gathering of the saints. Trying to limit that prophecy to 70 A.D. is simply a sign of deception. Afterall, there are many false prophets out there that don't want us to recognize the times and seasons per God's Word.

The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem do intend to build another Temple in Jerusalem for the last days. Since the apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2 that the "man of sin" is to come and sit in God's Temple for purpose of false worship, even showing himself that he is God, that's pointing to another Temple in Jerusalem in the last days prior to Christ's return. Paul was not simply talking about a metaphor with that, but a real Temple, but used for false purposes. With God sending His "two witnesses" to Jerusalem in the last days, and the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit killing them, it doesn't take much common sense to understand there's going to be a major false worship event in Jerusalem for the last days, and it will cause many to become apostates away from Christ. We are told in Rev.11 that all nations will see the dead bodies of God's two witnesses lay in the street of Jerusalem for three and a half days. Only in today's generation has there been technology possible to make that happen, pointing out that event is for the very last days just prior to Christ's coming.

In Christ's Olivet Discourse per Matt.24, He told His servants that were caught in Jerusalem when those events occur to get out of that area. Today there are some among the Messianic Jewish community that are preaching for a return to today's Jerusalem. Our Lord associated the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel with a false idol being set in the holy place, meaning inside the Temple. Antiochus didn't fulfill that in 170 B.C., nor did the Roman army in 70 A.D. It's about the false image setup for worship mentioned in Revelation 13, and its associated "mark of the beast". So there are events of prophecy for the last days that point to another Temple in Jerusalem prior to Christ's return.

In Mark 13 at the start, Christ's disciples with Him on the Mount of Olives looked at the Temple Mount complex and its buildings, and wondered at them. Christ said the time would come that not one stone would be standing on top of another there, and His disciples understood that to mean at His coming and the end of this world. They were correct to understand it that way too, otherwise our Lord would have corrected them there. Even a portion of the Western Wall of the old Temple complex still stands in Jerusalem today, showing that prophecy is indeed for the time when the great earthquake in Jerusalem occurs that is linked with Christ's coming (Zech.14; Rev.11; 16). In an indirect way, our Lord was pointing to another Temple standing there for the time of His coming. So the building of another Temple in today's Jerusalem is another sign of tribulation timing.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Celt

[Massorite]

you never answered my question -

First of all the tribulation DOES NOT begin until the antichrist signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE . . .

Can you show this verse where he "signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE?"

.

Yes. Daniel 9:27, the "he" spoken of here is the antichrist because Jesus doesn't ever sign a deal for just one week. One day of this week spoken of equals one year. Half way through this week or seven years the antichrist will stop the daily sacrifice and the oblation.

Right now as we are speaking there is for example a group called "The temple Mount Faithful" and you can go to their web site by putting in the words "Temple Mount Faithful". Who once a month parades around the temple mount with two very large square pieces of quarts stone that is so pure that they have a blue hewn or tint to them. These are going to be the corner stones for a future Jewish temple on the temple mount. In Jerusalem there is a large model at their offices that show what the temple and the grounds will look like. They also have already made all of the Priestly uniforms and worship utensils according to old testament specifications and are looking for the rest of the ashes of the red heifer last used to consecrate before that destruction of the last temple in 70 AD.

Another important fact is that the San Hedren has been re-instituted and is headquartered in Tiberius Israel.

Daniel 8:11,12,13. In verse 14 2300 days are mentioned which equals 6.4 years at 360 days in a year according to the Jewish year. "And then shall the sanctuary shall be cleansed". The sanctuary in 70 AD could not have been cleansed because it was destroyed but a new temple/sanctuary could be cleansed after the reign of the antichrist.

Daniel 11:21-45. In verse 23 the word "league" is used to speak of the same covenant spoken of in 9:27. In verse 31 it talks about taking away the daily sacrifice and the abomination that makes desolate that will be placed in the new temple at the alter.

These verses in the book of Daniel are where the per-trib concept comes from but as we can see there is no where here or any place else in the bible that tells us that there will be seven years of tribulation.

[BlindSeeker]

I don't think knowing when the tribulation starts per God's Word is that difficult, IF we allow God's Word to interpret itself.

Per Daniel 11, a vile person is to make a league (pact, covenant) in Jerusalem and a "small people" (small group) will be with him in foresaking the Holy Covenant. . . .

Perhaps a prayerful review of Jewish history in light of scripture . . . .

JOSEPHUS

[BlindSeeker]

you never answered my question -

First of all the tribulation DOES NOT begin until the antichrist signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE . . .

Can you show this verse where he "signs a deal with Israel IN THE FUTURE?"

Yes. Daniel 9:27, the "he" spoken of here is the antichrist because Jesus doesn't ever sign a deal for just one week . . .

And just where is this