When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Massorite]

I still would like to know why no one believes the Tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal?

It is possible that the tribulation will start at the opening of the first seal but there is no scripture that tells us an exact time or starting point of the tribulation period.

[traveller]

Massorite, good to see others have read Josephus on the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

I have just completed that portion of his writings. I've only read bits and pieces before. It's terribly heartbreaking. I had no idea.

[Bold Believer]

The thing the Church is missing is that the whole siege of Jerusalem WAS the tribulation to which Jesus referred. By trying to extrapolate the events of that time into the future, we open ourselves to all sorts of confusion. The same thing with the so-called antichrist. Antichrist is not a who: It's a WHAT. See 1st John. He defines antichrist very well. It's not a man, it's a spirit, a demonic entity which filled the Gnostics who claimed that Jesus was not a man. It has nothing to do with eschatology whatsoever, but Christology.

God operates in history. He doesn't leave 'gaps' in time. He sometimes has His prophets and apostles use allegories/metaphors to describe things that will or have happened. That doesn't make Scripture any less powerful.

[Celt]

Clearly there's a misunderstanding about the difference between the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned, and a time of God's wrath upon 70 A.D. Jerusalem because of His people falling away from Him, with God using the Romans as His punishing rod. What the Romans did in 70 A.D. Jerusalem was not the first time that kind of thing happened. Doesn't anyone remember the king of Babylon and the destruction of Jerusalem and the first Temple? As with that siege by Nebuchadnezzar some of the Jews resorted to cannibalism then too, which fulfilled the prophecy of Jeremiah 19 and Deuteronomy 28. How can anyone say what the Romans did in 70 A.D. was any worse? The priests were slain in the sanctuary then too (Lam.2:20).

Mark 13:19

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

(KJV)

By the descriptions in the Olivet Discourse, our Lord Jesus was talking about a type of tribulation that has never been before. The one by the Romans in 70 A.D. was but another example of the type by the king of Babylon destroying Jerusalem in Jeremiah's day.

Now if we go to popular books from authors like Hal Lindsay, we'll get all kinds of ugly descriptions trying to show us about a tribulation type that Jerusalem actually has already known, even more than once. Is that the kind of tribulation or affliction our Lord was talking about? I don't think so.

Mark 13:7

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

(KJV)

That end signifies the very end of this age, and the events leading up to Christ's coming. Note our Lord said as long as we hear of wars and rumours of wars, to not be troubled. In other words, when wars are still going on, that's not when to expect the coming affliction. It's when all wars and rumours of wars have stopped! That's when it's time to really remain sober and watching. And what kind of time is that, since it means the opposite of wars? It's a time of peace.

1Thes 5:2-3

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(KJV)

The apostle Paul also gave that contrast about the very end of this age just prior to Christ's coming. The ones who will be saying, "Peace and safety" he shows are the deceived, those in darkness, those who sleep in the night, and are drunken in the night, metaphorically.

Mark 13:11-13

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(KJV)

Does that show an event like a pagan king conquering the people of Jerusalem who had fallen into pagan idolatry, with God bringing His wrath upon them? No, it shows ONLY CERTAIN ONES BEING DELIVERED UP AND GOING THROUGH TRIALS, i.e., only those who proclaim Christ Jesus, and are hated "of all men" because of it! I interpret that "of all men" to mean the majority of the whole world, the number of actual believers then still waiting for Christ's coming being a very small number in the world.

The "Peace and safety" is proclaimed by the false worshippers on earth then, not Christ's elect servants. Is that the same picture of Jerusalem during the times of the king of Babylon, and the 70 A.D. Romans? Not hardly.

Dan 8:23-25

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

(KJV)

The idea of one understanding "dark sentences" is talking about a trickster, a double-dealer, one versed in deceptions. He's not going to destroy like how the king of Babylon or Rome's Titus did; that one is going to destroy "wonderfully", meaning in a marvellous way, using peace and prosperity.

Mark 13:21-22

21 And then if any man shall say to you, "Lo, here is Christ"; or, "lo, he is there"; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.(KJV)

Our Lord is telling us it isn't possible to deceive His elect with that "if it were possible" phrase. So what kind of works would be needed to ALMOST do that? Let me ask this; what sane man would be against a meaningful 'peace' for the whole world?

That's what type the "great tribulation" is going to be, not one of all out war with total chaos on the earth. Nor physical sieges upon Jerusalem with war machines like in past history. But a SPIRITUAL SIEGE? Yes, most definitely, with Jerusalem even in possession by the heathen (Rev.11). The real picture our Lord Jesus painted is of a time when the majority of the world will willingly bow down to a false one in false worship in place of God. And naturally that false one isn't going to war against anyone that bows to him in deception. But for those who remain waiting for Christ's return, and are faithful to the end, that's who he will make war against, and apparently it's going to be a very small number making that stand waiting for Christ's return.

Rev 12:17

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.(KJV)

The great tribulation is going to be different than all those in past history of the world. The picture our Lord painted is that we may even see some truly miraculous events that we aren't accustomed to seeing today, used for the purpose of deceiving all those which the world will not be hating.

[Bold Believer]

Clearly there's a misunderstanding about the difference between the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned, and a time of God's wrath upon 70 A.D. Jerusalem because of His people falling away from Him, with God using the Romans as His punishing rod. What the Romans did in 70 A.D. Jerusalem was not the first time that kind of thing happened. Doesn't anyone remember the king of Babylon and the destruction of Jerusalem and the first Temple? As with that siege by Nebuchadnezzar some of the Jews resorted to cannibalism then too, which fulfilled the prophecy of Jeremiah 19 and Deuteronomy 28. How can anyone say what the Romans did in 70 A.D. was any worse? The priests were slain in the sanctuary then too (Lam.2:20).

Mark 13:19

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

(KJV)

By the descriptions in the Olivet Discourse, our Lord Jesus was talking about a type of tribulation that has never been before. The one by the Romans in 70 A.D. was but another example of the type by the king of Babylon destroying Jerusalem in Jeremiah's day.

Now if we go to popular books from authors like Hal Lindsay, we'll get all kinds of ugly descriptions trying to show us about a tribulation type that Jerusalem actually has already known, even more than once. Is that the kind of tribulation or affliction our Lord was talking about? I don't think so.

Mark 13:7

7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

(KJV)

That end signifies the very end of this age, and the events leading up to Christ's coming. Note our Lord said as long as we hear of wars and rumours of wars, to not be troubled. In other words, when wars are still going on, that's not when to expect the coming affliction. It's when all wars and rumours of wars have stopped! That's when it's time to really remain sober and watching. And what kind of time is that, since it means the opposite of wars? It's a time of peace.

1Thes 5:2-3

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(KJV)

The apostle Paul also gave that contrast about the very end of this age just prior to Christ's coming. The ones who will be saying, "Peace and safety" he shows are the deceived, those in darkness, those who sleep in the night, and are drunken in the night, metaphorically.

Mark 13:11-13

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(KJV)

Does that show an event like a pagan king conquering the people of Jerusalem who had fallen into pagan idolatry, with God bringing His wrath upon them? No, it shows ONLY CERTAIN ONES BEING DELIVERED UP AND GOING THROUGH TRIALS, i.e., only those who proclaim Christ Jesus, and are hated "of all men" because of it! I interpret that "of all men" to mean the majority of the whole world, the number of actual believers then still waiting for Christ's coming being a very small number in the world.

The "Peace and safety" is proclaimed by the false worshippers on earth then, not Christ's elect servants. Is that the same picture of Jerusalem during the times of the king of Babylon, and the 70 A.D. Romans? Not hardly.

Dan 8:23-25

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

(KJV)

The idea of one understanding "dark sentences" is talking about a trickster, a double-dealer, one versed in deceptions. He's not going to destroy like how the king of Babylon or Rome's Titus did; that one is going to destroy "wonderfully", meaning in a marvellous way, using peace and prosperity.

Mark 13:21-22

21 And then if any man shall say to you, "Lo, here is Christ"; or, "lo, he is there"; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.(KJV)

Our Lord is telling us it isn't possible to deceive His elect with that "if it were possible" phrase. So what kind of works would be needed to ALMOST do that? Let me ask this; what sane man would be against a meaningful 'peace' for the whole world?

That's what type the "great tribulation" is going to be, not one of all out war with total chaos on the earth. Nor physical sieges upon Jerusalem with war machines like in past history. But a SPIRITUAL SIEGE? Yes, most definitely, with Jerusalem even in possession by the heathen (Rev.11). The real picture our Lord Jesus painted is of a time when the majority of the world will willingly bow down to a false one in false worship in place of God. And naturally that false one isn't going to war against anyone that bows to him in deception. But for those who remain waiting for Christ's return, and are faithful to the end, that's who he will make war against, and apparently it's going to be a very small number making that stand waiting for Christ's return.

Rev 12:17

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.(KJV)

The great tribulation is going to be different than all those in past history of the world. The picture our Lord painted is that we may even see some truly miraculous events that we aren't accustomed to seeing today, used for the purpose of deceiving all those which the world will not be hating.

What you're describing is Rev 20....Gog and Magog's spiritual siege of the Holy City (The Church) which is likened often in Scripture to Jerusalem. I think that is where we are now, having seen the Gospel go out to the world for 2000 years (since the Millennium is technically thousands of years (chilioi)). Christianity was the predominant religion in the world and Christian ideals blessed the whole earth and the knowledge of the LORD covered the earth as the waters covered the seas. But now man is beginning to see himself as God. There is only one place THAT idea could come from. It was the first lie; it will be the last. The man of sin is not a person, but an entire category of men who see themselves as gods because of their superior intellect and technology. They see religion as ridiculous and science as nothing short of miraculous.

(Rev 12 doesn't refer to the tribulation at all, but is a panoramic view of faithful Israel from the birth of Christ. Israel is the woman who brings forth Messiah, Satan tries to kill him, but God intervenes, but Satan is mad at Israel for bringing Messiah into the world and goes to make war with the remnant of her seed which keep God's commands and have the testimony of Jesus. The Believers are the remnant of Israel; faithful Israel. Satan was behind the scenes stirring up heathen Rome and faithless Israel against God.)

There really is no 'Great Tribulation" per se, Jesus uses common terms. Scripture called this time two different things: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah) and the Days of Vengeance (Luke 21:22, quoting Jesus). We tend to make a big thing out of the term, really it's not. As for the type of tribulation, Jesus was referring to the INTENSITY of it. Yes, this was always God's way of spanking Israel. But this time, he was finished. He'd had enough of her whoring about. He gave the Kingdom over to a nation showing the fruit (the remnant) and he was ending the age of the Shadow and bringing in the Reality. All of the judgments poured out on Israel in the Time of Jacob's Trouble are reverse of what was poured out on Egypt. Frogs, boils (sores), locusts, and so forth. So Israel has NEVER experienced God's wrath like this, IN FULL MEASURE. The great tribulation and the Time of Jacob's Trouble/Days of Vengeance are one and the same.

[Bold Believer]

Masonite, good to see others have read Josephus on the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

I agree Shiloh, good to stay focused. Because of the type of events prophesied in Revelation, Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and 2 Thessalonians 2, I put the tribulation starting when false messiah appears and starts requiring the whole world to bow to him in place of GOD, and many brethren are delivered up to councils and synagogues because of refusing.

Nebula, as for the tribulation starting with Christ opening the first seal, I don't believe that, because the 7 seals impart information and are not in order as to the events, except for the last three maybe. I believe that very first seal is about a false one coming on a white horse to mimic the way our Lord Jesus comes in Rev.19. That event doesn't happen until toward the end, like on the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe.

My conclusion also Celt. An in depth study of the verse 2 in Revelation 6 tells us that the man on the white horse will have a bow but the verse says nothing about arrows and A bow is useless without arrows unless you are going to run a bluff. Its like having a gun without bullets. The crown is given to him which shows that he is not royalty and that didn't have it in the first place like Jesus is. For the antichrist the white horse will be the symbol of peace. But for Jesus the white horse represents victory.

The words "conquering and to conquer" are not talking about a war or battles where men fight against each other. In the Greek those words mean "overcoming and to overcome" which is exactly what the antichrist does when he comes. He will conqure/overcome the secular pagan world not by war but by flatteries, miracles, doing wonders in the heavens, and dieing and coming back to life just as it was prophesied about Jesus. The antichrist will be the great copycat. He will mimic what Jesus did and claim to be Jesus/God.

Argh...

The man on the White Horse is NOT antichrist. It's Jesus...meek and lowly Jesus. He comes to overcome sin and death (which He did). The white horse IS victory, which Jesus achieved. Why does everyone try to put some mythical character into Christ's place? Jesus said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. The bow with no arrows refers to the fact that Christ needed no earthly weapon to accomplish His task.

All of the OTHER horses come after Christ and are punishments on those who REJECT him.

This 'antichrist-dictator' is whole cloth. He does not exist. Antichrist is a spirit which claims Christ was not human, but only a Christ-spirit. John never mentions antichrist outside of his letters. Antichrist has no bearing on Revelation whatsoever, antichrist was behind the Gnostic heresy. It's easy to confuse the description of Nero in Rev 13 with modern teachings of a dictator antichrist, but it isn't so.

[mizzdy]

I understand that when Christ come on His white horse (Rev. 19 He will come with a two-edge sword, He wears many crowns, His robe has blood on it and the horse and rider in Rev. 6 only has one crown and only has a bow, how are they the same and how are they both Christ?

[Bold Believer]

I understand that when Christ come on His white horse (Rev. 19 He will come with a two-edge sword, He wears many crowns, His robe has blood on it and the horse and rider in Rev. 6 only has one crown and only has a bow, how are they the same and how are they both Christ?

That's a good question Mizz, one I had problems with in my early days as a Believer since most end-times teaching is futurist (be it pre,mid or post trib). Remember that Christ was meek and lowly, Prince Moschiach (Daniel). He came to overcome sin and death, but he became King Messiah along the way through obedience. He was exalted through the resurrection and became the King to whom all authority in heaven and earth was given (Mt 28), so that by the time the Days of Vengeance were exacted, we see Him not as Prince Messiah but King Messiah, triumphantly leading his armies both earthly (the Romans) and heavenly (the saints). The language of Rev 19 is metaphoric, but describing Christ's victory over both faithless apostate Israel and pagan Rome (which was defeated in the ten toes later down the road, per Daniel). King Messiah is firmly establishing His Reign in both heaven AND earth in Rev 19. Notice the last thing that occurs is that Satan is bound and the Gospel goes forth. The world benefitted immensely from Christian rule, far more than it ever 'suffered', although when unrighteous people wormed their way into the Church, bad things did occur.

[Celt]

What I described in my previous post was NOT events of Rev.20, for that Revelation chapter is for AFTER Christ's return, and after His thousand years reign. Paul links the timing of Christ's coming as a thief in the night to that event when they shall say, "Peace and safety" in 1 Thess.5. He's talking about a false time of "Peace and safety", which is to occur just prior to Christ's second coming! So trying to say that the thousand years is now over, without Christ's second coming and reign here on earth de facto, is totally going away from what the Scripture states. Such an idea like that is clearly a doctrine of men, a Preterist doctrine.

The Ezekiel 38 and 39 chapters are also to occur during this world age, just prior to Christ's second coming, and is linked to the events of the battle of Armageddon. Gog and Magog is mentioned again in Rev.20 AFTER Christ's future thousand years reign, because it will be a final attempt by Satan to lead the wicked up against the holy city after the thousand years. That thousand years reign by Christ is still future to us today, for Christ's second coming has not happened yet. Nor has the resurrection events the apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

[mizzdy]

I understand that when Christ come on His white horse (Rev. 19 He will come with a two-edge sword, He wears many crowns, His robe has blood on it and the horse and rider in Rev. 6 only has one crown and only has a bow, how are they the same and how are they both Christ?

That's a good question Mizz, one I had problems with in my early days as a Believer since most end-times teaching is futurist (be it pre,mid or post trib). Remember that Christ was meek and lowly, Prince Moschiach (Daniel). He came to overcome sin and death, but he became King Messiah along the way through obedience. He was exalted through the resurrection and became the King to whom all authority in heaven and earth was given (Mt 28), so that by the time the Days of Vengeance were exacted, we see Him not as Prince Messiah but King Messiah, triumphantly leading his armies both earthly (the Romans) and heavenly (the saints). The language of Rev 19 is metaphoric, but describing Christ's victory over both faithless apostate Israel and pagan Rome (which was defeated in the ten toes later down the road, per Daniel). King Messiah is firmly establishing His Reign in both heaven AND earth in Rev 19. Notice the last thing that occurs is that Satan is bound and the Gospel goes forth. The world benefitted immensely from Christian rule, far more than it ever 'suffered', although when unrighteous people wormed their way into the Church, bad things did occur.

Thanks for the reply. I must admit I don't follow the logic as I am not a preterist in my thinking. I do believe Christ when He comes again will come back with that two edged sword. I have to admit you are the first person who I haave ever heard that Christ's earthly army was the Romans. Also I understand where some of language in Rev. could be considered metaphoric by some I don't see it that way myself. Also I just don't see satan as having already been bound. I'd like to know how I missed the millenial reign and perhaps like many others, I suspect, might think if this is the Kingdom of God now its more than a bit messed up.