When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Larry 2]

The following has been edit to contain numeration for clarity -

You made this statement - Alexander the Great, the he goat of Daniel 8:5, entered the region between 334 -333 B.C. which 2300 years latter would place at 1966 -1967.

I responded with this - -

1. Since you are applying these 2300 days to years and come to 1966 0r 1967, when did Daniel 8:11-13 become fulfilled at that time where we see the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden underfoot?

2. And is this taking away of the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:11 the start of the 2520 days?

3. In other words is this the point of the start of the tribulation to you?

4. One other thing, where do you see scripture showing that these 2300 days are to be counted as years such as the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24?

5. Was this question so complicated that you refused to take your turn at serving and play defense only? I haven't asked you to decipher an ink blot or something like that. Again the idea of this thread is to state what you believe with scripture. If what you say is true it seems you would be glad to back what you say with scripture, and also relate the different day, times and events to fit into your theory. I did that with my thinking of the tribulation as clear as I could make it.

6. Another question I asked you was - Last of all since you believe this has already happened and that it is Christ causing these things, will you then using your history assemble all the different prophesies concerning different times and days to our present time. For instance show me where the 2300 days of Daniel 8:11-14 fit.

7. Next where the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 are.

8. How about the 2520 days of Daniel 9:27?

9. The shortened days of Matthew 24:22.

10. The 1260 day reign of the antichrist.

11. The 1335 days of Daniel 12:12.

12. When is that nation that is born in a day appear we read of in Isaiah 66:8.

13. Is Jesus going to be the one causing the overspreading of abominations and making it desolate in Daniel 9:27?

14. Then turning to the book of Revelation when is that throne of Revelation 4:2 set?

15. Who are the twenty-four elders,

16. and the four beasts of Revelation Chapter 4?

17. Who or what is Jesus' angel giving the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle John in Revelation 1:1?

18. Who are the great multitude of Revelation Chapter,

19. or the 12000 of each tribe of Israel sealed in that same chapter?

20. Who is the star given the key to the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1

21. and when does it happen?

22. In Revelation 12:1 who is the woman that gives birth to the man child,

23. and who is the man child?

24. In Revelation 12:10 when is the accuser of our brethren cast down?

25. Who are the 144000 with Jesus of Revelation 14:1

26. and how do they get to be with Jesus if there is no tribulation in the future,

27. and Jesus is already dead and rose again?

Well if you'll answer those things with scripture, and identify them as to fitting in our present day as to their individual days, times, and events I'm anxious to see them. I believe you or someone said the sacrifice ended with Jesus' death on the cross, so all these different should be easy to trace out from that starting point which should be the midst of the week of Daniel 9:27 according to what I think you're saying. I look forward to your revealing of these things to me, and it might be easier taking one item at a time.

If you cannot answer these things concerning your beliefs, you seemingly do not know them, but I'll ask no more of you, or discuss it any further and thank you again for you participation to this point in Jesus' name - larry2

Like Xan said, "Lighten up just a bit."

Response by Larry - Thanks Blindseeker, I've been laughing since I read this list you made and appreciate you brother; this was great. Though I do hope there is a way to address some of those. With me beliving in the seven year tribulation period it all fits, but I am truly interested how you do it with all the time you have to cover. We may both learn some things out of this.

Thanks again in Jesus' name - larry2

[BlindSeeker]

2. And is this taking away of the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:11 the start of the 2520 days?

You tell me. The number 2520 is your own fabrication. If you are arriving at it by deduction, then please present it in the form of an equation.

Example:

100 = whatever you're saying it is

Minus 10 = whatever you're saying it is

Plus 50 = whatever you're saying it is

Do this and I will respond to your 2520 . . .

[BlindSeeker]

3. In other words is this the point of the start of the tribulation to you?

Like I said in my initial post, I do not believe in a seven year tribulation . . .

4. One other thing, where do you see scripture showing that these 2300 days are to be counted as years such as the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24?

Where do you see scripture showing the seventy weeks of Daniel to be 490 years? Or do you only see it in history?

If you use one means of interpreting something like days = years in Daniel, you stay consistent. Since the prophetic 2300 days deal with the duration of events in Daniel

[BlindSeeker]

6. Another question I asked you was - Last of all since you believe this has already happened and that it is Christ causing these things, will you then using your history assemble all the different prophesies concerning different times and days to our present time. For instance show me where the 2300 days of Daniel 8:11-14 fit.

I did.

7. Next where the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 are.

I have read the commentaries from many, many learned men throughout history who did read Hebrew and Greek and whose lives were full time scholars of the Word of God and history and have yet to find two who agree.

Nowadays, there is unity in beliefs amongst some believers regarding certain tenants of the Christian faith . . . but not because of diligent study, rather the exalting of the teachings of men like Scofield, Thompson, Drake or the reformers whose writing have been used to forge the beliefs of their followers.

If such learned men are so divided I can only but speculate. One theory has it with the invasion of Mohammedanism in the region around 612

[Larry 2]

2. And is this taking away of the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:11 the start of the 2520 days?

You tell me. The number 2520 is your own fabrication. If you are arriving at it by deduction, then please present it in the form of an equation.

Example:

100 = whatever you're saying it is

Minus 10 = whatever you're saying it is

Plus 50 = whatever you're saying it is

Do this and I will respond to your 2520 . . .

Response to Blindseeker - Dear Blindseeker, in Daniel 9:27 the "he" in that verse shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (That is 7 years of 360 days each which is 2520 days), and in the midst of that week (3 1/2 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

Thanks in Jesus - larry2

[BlindSeeker]

10. The 1260 day reign of the antichrist.

Oh, I didn

Edited August 29, 2008 by BlindSeeker

[BlindSeeker]

2. And is this taking away of the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:11 the start of the 2520 days?

You tell me. The number 2520 is your own fabrication. If you are arriving at it by deduction, then please present it in the form of an equation.

Example:

100 = whatever you're saying it is

Minus 10 = whatever you're saying it is

Plus 50 = whatever you're saying it is

Do this and I will respond to your 2520 . . .

Response to Blindseeker - Dear Blindseeker, in Daniel 9:27 the "he" in that verse shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (That is 7 years of 360 days each which is 2520 days), and in the midst of that week (3 1/2 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

Thanks in Jesus - larry2

Thanks for the clarification.

[BlindSeeker]

At this point I am holding off answering the remaining 14 questions to allow others to respond, catch up or ask for clarification of things posted.

Thanks,

William / BlindSeeker

[Larry 2]

At this point I am holding off answering the remaining 14 questions to allow others to respond, catch up or ask for clarification of things posted.

Thanks,

William / BlindSeeker

Response by larry2 - Thanks for your response to here Blindseeker. I am holding off having an opinion until I am able to assimilate all your answers. Your chart of my questions is a great help in doing that. I mean to hold off questions or responses until you finish your total response because many times your answer to one question will answer another question also.

Thanks for what you are doing here, as that is what I asked for on this thread.

In Jesus' name - larry2

[Celt]

Answer by larry2 - You are right, and these numbers take time to get straight. But the 1260 days until the middle of the week starts 30 days after the sacrifice is taken away because Daniel 12:11 tells us of 1290 days from the taking away of the sacrifice till the middle of the week.

Quoting Celt - So I'm seeing Dan.12:11 mean the abomination of desolation is setup 30 days after... the middle of the 'week'.

Answer by larry2 - Of course this statement didn't take into account the 30 days prior to the start of the 2520 days and I hope it makes sense from my previous answer. We still end up in the middle of the week.

Quoting Celt - And then per Dan.12:12, those who "waiteth" and come to 45 days after that, to the 1335 days, are said to be blessed.

Answer by larry2 - Well now we come to more serious math involved in searching this out (Still all addition and subtraction). To me the most important things to remember is when the sacrifice is taken away, when the middle of the week is, and also the time God shortens those days of tribulation at the end of the tribulation. Let's tackle these things.

You state that you believe the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11 end 45 days after the middle of the week, but that cannot be. That would place those that are blessed right in the worst tribulation ever known after the abomination of desolation is set in the holy place and it continues to become worse and worse until that shortened time prior to the end of the 2520 days. So let's look at another explanation at these 1335 days. Talking of the end of this 1335 days we read in Isaiah 25:9 "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." This is the blessing. We also can look at these following verses. 1 Peter 1:5. "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." And 1 Peter 1:13. "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ." And then I might add my thoughts here that Matthew 24:13 says "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." This would be those who come to the end of the 1335 days and are physically saved alive and enter now into great blessings of the millennium. The 1335 days actually begin 250 days before the middle of the week due to the antichrist having to reign 3 1/2 years and ends at the revealing of Jesus Christ 75 days after the shortened tribulation period.

Now all of this adds another thing we must consider. Since we said the 2520 day are shortened, again how many days is that? Daniel 8:11-14 tells us that. "11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Let's add it up. From the time the sacrifice is taken away 30 days before the 2520 days of tribulation (Two 3 1/2 periods of 1260 days), there are going to be 2300 days till the sanctuary be cleansed. What is the meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary? The antichrist was allowed to reign 3 1/2 years and that ends after 2300 days. Well that presents a problem too. Though first I must tell you that by adding all the 2300 days means that you have to consider the 30 days prior to the 2520 days, then that brings us to a point of the shortened days of the tribulation as being a period of 250 days. Now subtract the 3 1/2 year reign of the antichrist and that means that the antichrist first comes on the scene 250 days prior to the middle of the week. But then that opens up other scripture that comes into line with all these events. In Jeremiah 30:7 we read: "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." And in Matthew 24:21 it says of this second half of the tribulation; that is from the middle of the week, and we are told of that time in Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." How long does Jacob's trouble last then? 1010 days from the middle of the week until the shortened days of the tribulation of 2529 days. If this didn't clear it up a little ask again.

Sacrifice taken away -- 30 days --> Start of 2520 days of tribulation ---> Two witnesses witness for 1260 days till Middle of the week ---> 1010 days till shortened Great tribulation of 250 days ---> 75 days Christ revealed to Israel as their King and a nation born at once in Isaiah 66:8. (This also is that point at the end of the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12) ---> more to come I have looked this over and over and hope I haven't missed something but it happens - Let me also know if this satisfied your last statement (Leaving 75 days still to be accounted for). Celt, many of these things have to be looked at over and over again to have them become familiar and hopefully they do just that.

God bless all in the precious name of Jesus - larry2

I'm trying to see it, but I still don't.

If the sacrifice and oblation is taken away after 1290 days per Dan.12:11, then that means 1290 days AFTER the tribulation has begun. You're confusing me with the idea that the sacrifice is taken away 30 days prior to the start of the tribualtion. I'm seeing the 1335 days in Dan.12:12 meaning 1290 + 45 = 1335 days. These times also correspond to Antiochus Epiphanes from 171 to 165 B.C. when he fulfilled the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem as a type for the antichrist. I believe the same order will follow for the future antichrist also.