The divorce and remarriage question

[Smalcald]

Do you really think GOD wants you to live in misery because you made a mistake? Really? IS that how you see GOD? We screw up. We correct that screw up. We move on. All is forgiven. All is made new.

I totally agree with this statement.

However, it is not a mistake, it is an intentional sin, let

[Smalcald]

Right I agree Cobalt.

I was trying to seperate the two issues between intentional sin and divorce. Its almost impossible to make generalizations about divorce as each case is so different. Obviosly people who get divorced are forgiven when there was sin in the divorce like anyone else who sins.

[JCISGD]

Hi all, im not posting here to try and win a theological arguement, nor do i think others are. Im hoping i can encourage anyone who has divorced, remarried or considering it, and cant honestly say they feel the clear light of Gods approval, to consider fasting and prayer about it.

The reason i do this is that not only do i sincerely believe i have had the matter clearly proven to me, but i have read a gripping account of a early 19th century preacher who was warned by solem and unmistakeable dreams over a two year period. His testimony "A Preachers Repentance From Adulterous Remarriage" By J M Humphrey is a stern and sombering account of Gods gracious yet serious mind towards all that divorce. This man was obviously a devout Christian who God was being used powerfully in evangelism, but from the moment he remarried he began to be troubled unless seperated from marital relations. His wife of his youth and sweetheart dreams, left him and went into vice and adulteries.

Ask yourself is any tempory gain, even a happy family life and marital pleasures worth hell if you have misread the mind of God about it. What will it help if you say " I did not know" or " My pastor, or so and so said" ?.

Here is some of his condensed testimony of his dreams, the rest i urge all to find by web search. It is on a site called Spirit Of Hosea which has many other proofs that the Church has been mislead and many are not going to heaven as they suppose. If I im wrong let it be proven, atleast look at the evidence available and not risk eternity from holding on to falsehood even if sincerly believed. We must warn others Ezk 3:18 and rescue the Church from grave error.

Testimony of dream warnings of J M Humphrey. (condensed)

13th April 1907 Visited by an eminent preacher of exceptional holiness quoting Isa 52:11 " depart ye, go out from there, toouch no unclean thing, go out from the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord" and 2 Cor 7:11 " Let us...cleanse ourselves from all filthiness...." These were not flighty dreams but stamped on my heart and mind by the invincible power of thr Spirit. Thus I can never forget them.

28th Sept, While I stood on a solitary street with no one around, suddenly a being from another world descended and sat ontop of a nearby building... and began talking in loud,clear,thrilling and awful words...that stuck fast like arrows, saying "Someone in this community is rejecting God-given light, if they do not stop, God is going to send them to hell forever. He has sent me to warn them. ...Do as you please...i have warned you. I awoke filled with terror and conviction.

Another night in a dream I saw a large white boat at sea (representing the safe bible way), but I had left this boat, and taken a little narrow skiff (representing the one narrow scripture Math 19:9)...I was rapidly drifting away... and my little boat became uncontrollable and leaped on by angry waves untill it sunk and i went down to a watery grave. I awoke with a sense of Gods displeasure on divorce?remarriage beyond the ability to discribe.

"I want to say right here, strange as it might seem, God kept His blessing on my soul...with great paitence in covincing me. The trouble was it was such an legalised sin., among almost all classes, even the strictest and devout people....I saw that if i was to take Gods way i would have to take a dead stand against the majority of preachers and holiness teachers of our day." ( He also was at all times not wanting to hurt his new wife or rush into a second mistake).

I also saw that i would be considered a "Turncoat" as I taught no divorce for many years, even after my first wife left me and went into debauchery, and this also would also be a stumbling block to the unsaved.

Another dream I saw myself joined arms with my second wife, walking down a wide brimstone road in hell...past throngs of men dressed in black,with silk hats.

...all keeping time to a band of music " In hell at last! in hell at last. And earth and all her pleasures past. In hell at last! in hell at last, For aye and aye the die is cast." ...a dozen large black pigs ( emblems of filth and uncleaness) with flopping ears ran infront cringing to the music. I awoke with that awful picture burning in my brain and that hellish music ringing in my ears.

(During these times he, J M Humphries , took time out fasting and for 18 mths lived seperate from his wife. Mostly away preaching but also when home.)

I will skip two of the dreams and finish with his last.

In my dream I was standing in a large yard alone...it seemed God was so angry because of my divorce-remarriage, that a great stream of lightening swept down and ran on the ground to meet me, in thousands of fiery spangles. It picked me up and carried me thirty feet to a large heap of fire, holding me fast to the flames. When i awoke the bed seemed hot with the wrathful flames and i heard the words "prepare to meet thy God". I went home and told my wife and we mutually agreed to seperate.

Since doing so, i feel as clear as an angel. I am fully convinced that divorce-remarriages are wrong: no matter if every preaher says they are not.

J M Humprey.

Brothers and Sisters can we not see even without the multitude of proofs and witness available that not only is divorce wrong it is always adultery and a hardness of heart. Divorce does not and cannot annul the union between a man and woman who marry for the first time, what God has joined let NO man put asunder. Again in Hosea God says he will not hear the prayers of those who " deal treacherously with the wife of the youth". It does not say wife as in whoever we have married, but the wife we first marry.

Surely we can see that all sin is to be forgiven,and anything less is hardness of heart. If your enemny let alone your wife strikes you, forgive. We can not get around the command to forgive if we want to be forgiven. It cant be any plainer, those who refuse to forgive will not enter heaven, and forgiveness means reconcilliation.( Not nescessarily another divorce and going back to first wife, I do not intend to give directions only proof of what i now see.)

All this has been said in sincerity and a spirit of tenderness, In Christ Jesus.

[Shiloh62]

I would like some feedback, mostly attitudes concerning remarriage.

Have any of you remarried ministers had a hard time within certain groups?

One church I went to did not allow folks who were remarried (for any reason but death) to become a member. They instructed people to go back to their first spouse.

Note to my brothers and sisters: I did not start this topic to throw stones or to bring condemnation. I would like to learn something.

My personal atttitude/opinion towards marriage is not the same that I would impose on others. Personally, I feel that if I got married, I would have to divide my time, and dilute my attention between God and a spouse, and I don't want to do that. Shiloh62

[JCISGD]

Ask yourself is any tempory gain, even a happy family life and marital pleasures worth hell if you have misread the mind of God about it. What will it help if you say " I did not know" or " My pastor, or so and so said" ?.

So people who divorce and re-marry are going to hell?

No im not saying that, im saying IF what ive shown is true ( and so far i believe it is), then if not confessed it would end in hell.

But let it be known that we cant repent of something unless the Lord convicts us of it. Therefore IF we know divorce-remarriage to be wrong then we must confess it and seek God for the next step.

Most of the teachers of what i have shown, also teach to becareful not to aggrivate sin by kneejerk reaction, but to seek God throughout the whole process.

[JCISGD]

Hi Foc, i will not debate with you as your mind appears clearly made up, and you twist my meanings and then call them nonsense. i.e Jesus resetting the law, this was in context with a remark of another who said "Jesus did not come to SET the parimeters of divorce-remarriage", and so i said " No it was more LIKE reset them" but this was not meant to be taken literally.

I haven`t got time or learning to reply to your overwhelming number of posts. But if you choose to take one at a time i will give honest even if wrong, reasons for my opinions and conclusions.

I am not a teacher, but a fellow believer who sincerely believes the Church on the whole is teaching a grave error on this topic. From what i read this change only occured in the last 100 yrs there abouts. I have been careful to point others to the original sources as it is possible i might misrepresent them.

I am only trying to relay what i am seeing and hearing.

In my own personal life I went to many Pastors and respected Christians from different backgrounds and denominations, all gave me different and conflicting advice. I did not know it at the time, but God was showing me divorce was because of a hard heart. I ended up listening to those like yourself that told me i was free, and that remarriage was permitted.

What i now find out, not because someone new has invented something new, but because it has been proven to me that i was hearing the voice of the Lord all along. I had unforgiveness and therefore i divorced my wayward wife instead of forgiving her and that is that divorce is always because of a hardened heart. But if you are at peace with your conscience then so be it. I am at peace with mine and know that i am not misleading anyone or causing them to stumble. Each believer must listen to the voice of the Lord and not man.

[JCISGD]

Yes God will and does supply the grace we need for every circumstance, even celibacy if we find ourselves in the divorce/remarriage trap.

Again i must emphasize seek God on every matter and do not choose celibacy unless specifically led to. This is the problem when men/women who try to live a celibate life when God has said "go forth and multiply" they are unable to control themselves. Celibacy is grace empowered and not the normal way, most famous preachers and revivalist married and even remarried upon the death of their wife/hushand.

God is not the author of confusion, but oh man the confusion i went through trying to fit square pegs in round holes untill God shone His light on my error and the error of divorce and remarriage.

I have 2 siblings and 1 friend who were divorced and then remarried and even though i gave them my blessings, i could not bring myself to attend their weddings. I see now that the Holy Spirit within me was grieved and although i tried to supress my feelings, i had no relief until the next day.

I wish i did not have to be the one to now tell them they are committing adultery in Gods sight, but i know of no other way for me. Ezek 3:18-21.

Thats pretty sad that you feel to sit in judgment and do that to your own siblings...

They ARENT committing adultery if they have remarried, Im sorry to inform you.

If you are game, lets discuss this 'error of divorce and remarriage' further...please give more detail as to what causes you to believe what you do.

By your own standards are you not sitting in judgement of me? I am not judging as i am not deciding their worth or their sentence, it is Jesus` words that judge them " WHOEVER divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery and if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.

[JCISGD]

Hi again FoC thank you for time takin to answer diligently to each point. However i meant one for each post. Tedious true, but too many points are lost or obscured by shotgun approah i think.

I havnt learnt how to post quotes yet, if someone can teach me that might help, or i can reply to each point post you make.

I have to say i find your language more than a little charged and emotive to the point of being derogatory. To me this is the sign of someone over invested in the outcome, to the point of sacrificing the truth to cover their lifestyle. If im wrong about that please forgive me, but i wont be bullied by emotive blackmail and name calling. Theres a good post on debating rules by George somewhere. That said, lets rumble my friend.

[JCISGD]

Call me stupid, but i cant see any wrap in tags icon. Whats that Quote button down the bottom do?

I havnt resorted to name calling or personal assults, but you did on your previous posts i thought. I dont play games but i have jested when maybe not wise.

For example my post about Jesus resetting the law. That was a play on the words used by Smalcald, and was never meant as a doctrine or teaching, but only in showing his error in the use of the word " set".

But lets start afresh in forgiveness and see where we get to.

1.) All divorce is because of unforgiveness.

2.) All marriages are joined in the sight of God and the two become one.

3.) No marriage can be seperated by divorce only by death.

Thats enough for now i think,

[JCISGD]

There is plenty more, but you have proved nothing to me so far, and too many replies only increase the questions being asked untill no one knows what was what. Perhaps we should take this to the debate section. I want that those reading do not follow half understandings and kneejerk responses so i will stick with careful and deliberate pacing of answers.

1.) I think you are spiritualising mans divorce to equate with Gods divorce of Israel and these are not equal. God has kept a remant and has not forsaken her (Israel as a nation) yet. Is unforgiveness possible to God.

We are at odds over Josephs intention to divorce as my position is that the jews called them man and wife even during the betrothal period, unlike other nations and therefore divorce on the grounds of deception (the woman claiming to be virgin but not) is lawful and proper. Unforgiveness is not the issue, the marriage is not valid by deceit.

2.)Why then does Jesus refer back to Genesis and say " but in the begining it was not so so" and that God had made them one.

Moses gave them the law not as an allowance but to stop emotions boling over into bloodshed, as we see everywhere in domestic violence. Of which you

accuse me of saying people should remain in such marriages, when i have only said as Paul says "if they seperate they must remain single or reconcile.

3.) I think you are reading extra into Pauls words, as he states the reason to let an unbeliever depart is for peace, and no where hints at remarriage which

would contradict his earlier words, and the words of Christ, "Whoever divorces."

No one is saying divorce doesnt happen, but Jesus clearly teaches all to forgive and anything else is hardness of heart and will not enter in to heaven.