Security of the Beliver.

[Botz]

I think it is unimportant if this thread is a well worn road, presumably those that have travelled many times before will not mind if a few others take the journey, especially as Worthyboards has a vastly fluctuating number of participants, who for one reason or another might not have not chosen until now to enter the debate. Naturally those that have come this way so often before do not have to feel obligated to participate...it is not compulsory.

On the issue of eternal salvation, I have never been able to escape the fact a birth takes place.

Nicodemus tries to unsuccessfully to relate it to a man entering its mothers womb for a second time (probably Pharasaical sarcasm because Nico was not a dimwit)

Once a person has been 'born again,' he has undergone a transformation that is permanent...his spirit is no longer dead, he has been made awake to the things of G-d, he has been translated from the Kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Light...he can never be the same again...G-d has become real, G-d has become his 'Abba'. It is a position of sonship that involves relationship...it is a secure position...it is a permanent position that was born out of the mercy of G-d and is fully sustained by His grace.

I have at times gone all around the circuit comparing the Scriptures that suggest eternal salvation, against those that suggest a loseable salvation, but have come full circle back to the actual act of regeneration, and believe a son or daughter of G-d is a son or daughter of G-d forever.

People talk about losing ones salvation, but that discounts the actuality of sonship..it is as though 'salvation' is some throw away commodity and careless handling will incur severe retribution... but salvation flows from the position of sonship, it does not supplant it...if you like it is a symptom/indication/benefit/sign of sonship that the Holy Ghost makes real to us.

Interesting that you should make that comment about Nicodemus. I've never seen anyone actually give him credit for knowing other than what Jesus literally said. But, as the teacher, as Jesus called him, he had to have known of the language useage in the OT, of relating a physical to a spiritual. However, he thought Jesus was telling him that he had to wipe out his years of learning - his way of keeping all those laws and rituals - in other words, to begin anew as a newborn babe. This thought was revolutionary. Jesus went on to tell him another thing Nicodemus would have immediately recognized.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus was referring to this OT scripture.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Then, of course, Jesus went on to illustrate the children in the wilderness, and the people were griping and complaining until they mad the Lord angry. He sent poisonous snakes into the camp. Once bitten, the people knew they faced sure death and called out for salvation. That's when Moses (via God) held up the brass snake and told them, whosever looks on this snake will live.

But, my point here - is that these people were desperate. Their lives were at stake. The most important thing to them was to believe that looking at that snake would heal them.

That's a strong need.

Nicodemus understood the sacrifices Jesus was demanding. This was serious stuff.

I'm not putting forth yea or nay on this topic. I just wanted to say that a person must believe fully on the One he looks to. It's not easy to then turn away.

Hi Trav...Just trying to follow your line of thought here.

From my understanding, Nicodemus was one of the leaders of Israel, and possibly a potential Believer, that wanted direct assurance from Yeshua ben Yossef that His teaching was of G-d. His dilemma seems to be that he knows that the L-rd must be a teacher sent from G-d because of the attesting signs, but obviously he has heard something of the import of the message that is following the signs, and wants to check it out for himself. He might have been sent by other members of the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem, who want him to report his findings back to them, before they take any action, because at this time of the Passover, when they come from all over the Israel and the world to celebrate in Jerusalem, they have always been used to teaching the people and being the focus of attention...or their teachings, their rituals and the whole emphasis of the people looking to spiritual leaders, means they had a prominent role...for some there was the prestige...for some there was financial gain, especially if they had hired local shepherds to tends flocks of sheep on the surrounding slopes...for others there was the privilege of serving G-d.

Suddenly a Galilean teacher with a raggy band of disciples that do not belong to a traditional school of learning, comes into Jerusalem at the time of this great feast, and teaches truth in such a way they are completely blown away, and to cap it all He performs signs and wonders that at best they have only ever read or dreamed about... the guys at the top have no choice but to sit up and take notice...they are all meant be 'teachers of Israel', but the people seem to be going after this other fellow and listening to what He says...so perhaps they send Nicodemus to check out his message....at night... just so the people don't see the Sanhedrin is actually coming to this Man with questions. This is at a time before the Sanhedrin openly opposes the L-rd.

Speculative? Yes!

I understand the O.T references that you gave, and the framework from which the L-rd is teaching Nicodemus, and like you mention, he would have understood them immediately... but suddenly he is confronted with 'revelation' and has to think outside the box. He desperately wants to be assured that he is part of the Kingdom of G-d...but this Teacher has just told him it is impossible unless he is born not just of the flesh, but of the Spirit...on top of this He questions how a teacher of Israel does not understand these things...BUT the L-rd then goes on to reveal the nature of the Son.

It has always been one thing to recognise Scripture, and another to understand it, Nicodemus is being taught directly by the One who baptizes in the Holy Ghost, and things that have been hidden are now revealed. It is the same nowadays when a Jewish person sees beyond Orthodox teaching that Messiah does come in glory...but before that he came as the Suffering Servant, as the Passover Lamb...our Redemption.

[Guest shiloh357]

I wanted to submit these verses from Hebrews. They are in my opinion the strongest support for those that believe we can loose our salvation.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Well, it should be obvious that this is referring to apostacy. This passage is referring to those who have actually had a spiritual experience in that they have partaken of the Holy Spirit.

The nature of their falling away is referred to in the darkest imagery the writer of Hebrews can imagine. He says that they crucify to themselves, the Son of God afresh. Note that He uses "crucify" in the present tense. In Greek, it is used in the present active participle. It shows a continuous present action, and to add to the imagery he declares that they are putting Christ to open shame.

These are not people who simply stumbled or slipped up and fell into some sin. These are people who somehow, even though they knew the truth, chose not only to reject the truth but became enemies of Christ and purposely hold Him up to ridicule, and shame to same degree that He was held to public shame on the cross. The cross is used as a very poingnant frame of reference to describe the level of contempt these apostates show for Christ. It is an act of open rebellion, based on an irrational hatred.

The point is the writer of Hebrews is making is that such people cannot be renewed to repentance because they doing what they are doing in the full knowledge of the truth. There is nothing more frustrating than a person who rebels against the truth even though they know it is the truth. They hate the truth because it is the truth. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong for such people. Their hatred of truth is so irrational, they would rather be wrong than to accept what they know is right. It is a level of intellectual suicide that cannot be reasoned with. For this reason, since they reject the truth in full knowledge of the truth, such a person cannot be renewed to repentance.

[irishcowboy]

I do have to say this......

there are many that think that they are saved, and they are not!

when a person is saved, they become a new creation, they will put away the things of old.....there are many that say a canned prayer and continue in life just as they had before, other then they go to church like a good Christian, they wear the right cloths, they say the right things, they do the right things, but.....BUT..... if you look at their fruit, THEY ARE LOST.......

who are we that we should CRUCIFY CHRIST AGAIN????? this is saying are we going to become like those that never actually repent? and do the same things over and over and over..... thinking we are saved in the Grace of God, this is common, this is not a good thing, this is not salvation.....

I am not saying that a person that is saved will not sin, no, not at all, I am saying a person that is saved will not be living in sin, whether it be living with some one out of wedlock, stealing from their workplace (even a pencil or pen) using the Lords Holy Name in Vain (not just using it in cuss words, but there are many other ways to use His Name in vain), causing others to stumble by either their dress or their actions, gossiping, getting involved in gossip, even listening to it and giggling about it, telling off coloured jokes, shutting people out of your fellowship, not giving out love but rather causing division between the people of the fellowship.

I can go on about a lot of things that go on in a church fellowship.... one of the things I destest the most is the gossip..... it does nothing but tear people down.... we are not there to tear people down, we are told to gather together to lift each other up.....

those that lead others in the canned prayer, with out continuing on with the training, or teaching, with out following up with those that earnestly want a new life showing them how to have a new life, are actually doing them a disservice......

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that overcometh..... will have his name left in the book of life..... he that overcometh will be clothed in white. he that does not overcometh, does not have his cloths clean, and may have his name BLOTTED OUT.....

we are to live an UPRIGHT AND HOLY LIFE, we are to live AN UPRIGHT AND BLAMELESS LIFE..

if the Christian would live their lives as earnestly for Christ as the muslims do trying to convert Christians, the Christians would not be thought of as hypocrites.....

What do the people in the church have, that the people outside the church do not have that they want???? for the most part NOTHING..... they see nothing but a bunch of stuffed shirt hypocrites..... drowning in their own righteousness.......... what is going on in the church now is what Christ spoke about against the pharesis... we shun those we do not want to be around, no matter how much they are hurting or wanting to be doing right, we shun them and instead of raising them up, we chase them off........

little children being treated as robots..... I heard two children being berated as soon as sunday school started, "You better be good today, I am tired of your misbehaving, you are always misbehaving, I just wont stand for it" this was a brother 4 and sister 6, that lost their father when the boy was less then 1 year old (rare blood disorder), they have no man around the house, and they are just children. when people treat them as a person, those two children are very compliant, when you belittle them they act up......

the person that said this is "A CHRISTIAN" that is suppose to be a top notch Christians..... a week or so after this happend, her son was riding a skate board down the hill, and fell, landed really hard (witnessed by several people) he rolled and was laying there, his back hurt, I stopped and was trying to get his phone number (to call on the cell phone) and trying to get him to just lay still..... I did not know his sister was close by and had took off to get mom and dad.... there are several people there now, we are trying to find out how bad he is injured, his dad comes out and jerks him up, saying I told you not to be on that skate board (them two wheeled skate boards that twist, I have ridden one, and they are not easy, cool, yes, but not easy) all the while the kid is hollering he is hurt....

my grandson does not go to that class anymore, and those two children do not want to come to church anymore.

there are at least a dozen other children that are still minors that will not go to church any more.... my youngest son will not even go to church with out me (he is 20 and on his own, he knows the word, but has been basiclly shunned, being he lives in a different town, we do not see him much anymore)

HOW ARE WE TREATING THESE PEOPLE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

is a person treated as they should when they come in?

I would be very worried about standing before the Lord on the Day, and trying to explain why I chased some one away, or run them off, or did not welcome them or treated them like dirt.....

I do get angry about things as this, people causing people to turn away from Christ.....

those that do, need to be very concerned about their names being left in the Book of Life......

once saved, always saved????? I do not think so.... we must overcome, we must become the new creature that we were intended to be...... a few words spoken from the mouth that some one else is leading us in saying does not do it...... salvation is free, but it will cost you everything, some will even loose their family, business, jobs, friends....thats right, everything...... even their houses and cars......

it was never said, that being a Christian was a once a week thing, or that it would solve all the problems, actually that is when the trouble really starts, just how much do you want Christ? the more of The Holy Spirit you get, the harder things get in one aspect, for the attacks on you will start to increase, and if satan and his demons can not get you on a frontal attack, they will attempt to do a sneak attack from the rear, and attack your family and friends and work places, so as to catch you off guard, so that you will slip and fall into their traps....

I have to go for a while,

mike

[Mudcat]

Hi Mudcat,

I would be more than willing to discuss the issue with you. I will try to stay on point if you will do the same.

The security of the believer hinges entirely on the who is the object of faith. If I am trusting Jesus for EVERYTHING, and I do mean everything then I am secure. If I am trusting in myself to maintain my salvation then I am bound to lose it.

The 2 passages above can be harmonized, IMHO. It is late now so I will try to get back asap.

LT

Hi Larry,

I look forward to it and will make every effort to keep it on track.

Before we get into it, to much though. I did want to take a moment to apologize to you.

I was rereading a previous thread, and realized I was a little snarky with you... and undeservedly so, once or twice.

I hope you will forgive me?

Mudcat

[Mudcat]

Hi Deathstar80,

I hope nobody here minds if I skip reading what others have put down already and post this. If anyone does have a problem with it, please pm me and I will stop.

I think the normal punishment for posting in a thread without reading every single word, of every single post is .... walking the plank.

I have a comment about the proof given for "once saved, always saved".

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

To my understanding, you have misinterpreted what Jesus said. He is not saying that believers will always have salvation or even that they will only lose salvation if they want to. John 10:28 says that believers shall live eternally because they believed. The last two verses says that nobody else can take away a person's salvation.

At present, I am inclined to agree with your position, that salvation is contingent on belief...or perhaps better stated, salvation is contingent upon faith.

However, by my own admission that faith is a requirement of salvation, did I just make faith a 'boastful' work? It is a little slippery that way. What do you think?

In regards to the selected passage in John. The teaching of OSAS is better positioned by looking at several verses in tandem, I don't suppose there is a single stand alone verse that nails it down solidly enough.

The passage in John was simply a topic starter, though I have heard many a baptist preacher use these verses from the pulpit as a key building block for a 'proof' of OSAS.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem is believing that you have something to do with salvation. Salvation is does not hinge on what you do or don't do, and it does not even hinge on your faith.

Faith, in the scripture is not a condition for salvation. Faith is the avenue by which we receive salvation, but it is not the condition upon which salvation exists in the life of the believer.

The argument that a lack of faith will cause us to lose salvation displays a lack of knowledge as to the true role of faith in salvation.

Utlimately, the problem is making salvatino dependent on me. When salvation is dependent on my performance, it completely devalues the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

There is a certain type of religious vanity that some people possess. This vanity causes them to incorrectly view salvation as a reward for service resulting from their good works and meticulous observance of God

[Mudcat]

The problem is believing that you have something to do with salvation. Salvation is does not hinge on what you do or don't do, and it does not even hinge on your faith.

Faith, in the scripture is not a condition for salvation. Faith is the avenue by which we receive salvation, but it is not the condition upon which salvation exists in the life of the believer.

The argument that a lack of faith will cause us to lose salvation displays a lack of knowledge as to the true role of faith in salvation.

Well, I appreciate you bringing out the problems associated with issue.

However, I would posit that there is no faithless salvation.

Faith is the acceptance of the work that has been done on our behalf by Christ, that we could by no means do ourselves.

Faith without Christ yields nothing. IOW.... I could have faith that the flying spaghetti monster would save me, but it would be to no avail.

It is right to say that faith does not save us. It is Christ that save us.

From my understanding it is his work, that has allowed our faith to be imputed as righteousness.

But, the two concepts are to interlinked to separate. No faith = no righteousness.

But from what I can gather, from your previous post on this thread....we see a lot of things similarly.

You seem to agree with me that our spiritual adoption 'could be annulled' if we chose to do so.

[kross]

It comes down to the first sentence for me, I trust GOD. I walk in the belief that HE is the one who cleans me up and if there is something HE has not changed or cleaned up, that is up to HIM. I do feel that HE is faithful when i am faithless and the idea that HE would just let me choose to walk away from HIM goes against my belief that HE can be trusted.

I understand, to some degree your standpoint Kross, and thanks for your thoughts.

...you seem to be a little braver than most, taking a flat stand and I value that as well.

However, given the scripture cited in Hebrews, in the OP, how do you interpret it differently?

Ultimately, my question is not can God be trusted.

Rather, can people reach a point in which they decide (after a salvific experience) they would rather have sin than salvation?

Would God honor that decision?

First of all, I do not think I would interpret it differently. I think it is a warning. Perhaps those who walked with JESUS and saw the miracles are being discussed. They would have tasted of the LORD and the HOLY SPIRIT and perhaps some of them turned away. I do not know. What I know is that in the warning is not necessarily a statement that one can do what is warned against. This is a letter written in a different time.

Scripture teaches us that one of the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT is faith. If you do not have it, it hasn't been given. If you have it, than it is something that was given to you from GOD and not from you. HE does not take away HIS gifts.

Now, there is a difference between faith and belief. One can hear the word and take it in with great joy, but without the faith from GOD, the cares of the world will soon choke it out. That is the difference between having a relationship with JESUS and having a religion.

So, what the question really is, "Will GOD start a work in a person and then not finish it"? would GOD allow the spirit of a man that HE is working with to be over taken by Satan and thus cast him off? Paul really stated it strong in Phil 1:6-7.

Again, if it is possible that some are called and others are chosen, thean I am one who was chosen and I have no need to worry if I will be unchosen. If there are those who have not been chosen but did the choosing, than....

[kross]

I hope nobody here minds if I skip reading what others have put down already and post this. If anyone does have a problem with it, please pm me and I will stop. I have a comment about the proof given for "once saved, always saved".

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

To my understanding, you have misinterpreted what Jesus said. He is not saying that believers will always have salvation or even that they will only lose salvation if they want to. John 10:28 says that believers shall live eternally because they believed. The last two verses says that nobody else can take away a person's salvation.

Althought the last two verses do not really say "nobody else". That is a statement of what some believe, but it is not what it says.

If coupled with the verse that says neither Height or depth, angels or demons, or any power can separate us..... than you would have to say that the power of a person or the power of Satan can not hold sway in the presence of the HOLINESS of GOD.

Still, I understand that I will not make a difference in your belief. However, it will always be wrong, in my eyes, to decide something is written in a scripture that is not there. The scripture may be understood that way, if you choose, but it does not say that.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well, I appreciate you bringing out the problems associated with issue.

However, I would posit that there is no faithless salvation.

Who said anything about a faithless salvation?

Faith is the acceptance of the work that has been done on our behalf by Christ, that we could by no means do ourselves.

Faith without Christ yields nothing. IOW.... I could have faith that the flying spaghetti monster would save me, but it would be to no avail.

Faith is the conduit by which we receive salavation. It is not, in and of itself the saving element. We are saved by grace through faith. Salvation does not rest on our faith, but on the finished work of Christ on the cross. In all truth, even the faith needed to accept Christ is not OUR faith, but it is supplied by God. I don't believe for example, that a person going through a season of doubt or questioning loses their salvation.

It seems to me that people always, one way or another want to make salvation dependent upon us. Human, religious vanity cannot accept that salvation from beginning to end, is work of God alone in the life of the believer. As humans we are conditioned by our society to strive for the approval of our parents, teachers and othe associates. Getting ahead in life, often comes by striving to gain someone's approval, especially an employer. The problem is that we have allowed that to bleed over into our relationship with Christ. God is not interested in man performing well enough for Him. We cannot possibly do that anyway. God's program is about restoring relationships. Salvation is not about having "enough faith" or working hard enough to gain God's approval. That is religion. Religion is all about peformance-based acceptance, and human vanity longs for that approval in order to fulfill it's natural inclination to boast. What I find so bizarre, is that many Christians WANT to deserve salvation. They want salvation on the basis of how holy they are. They pervert salvation into works-based system of merit so that they can feel as if they have earned God's favor and that somehow God's favor is seen as a stamp of approval upon themselves. That among other reasons is why I hate religion.

It is right to say that faith does not save us. It is Christ that save us.

From my understanding it is his work, that has allowed our faith to be imputed as righteousness.

But, the two concepts are to interlinked to separate. No faith = no righteousness.

I would agree.

But from what I can gather, from your previous post on this thread....we see a lot of things similarly.

You seem to agree with me that our spiritual adoption 'could be annulled' if we chose to do so.

There is a version of Eternal Security, which I call "hyper-security" which holds the position that a person could, theoretically deny Christ and even convert to another religion, and still remain saved, but I do not believe that position is biblically defensible. I believe that a person can, over time, descend to place where they have apostacized from the Christian faith. If it were not possible, I don't think the Bible would be warning us against such.