Security of the Beliver.

[Smalcald]

I agree with Shiloh; good post.

Our congregations in my opinion must do a better job of church discipline, I need discipline myself, I am not saying this as some sort of finger pointing exercise. It is not fair to let people believe that holding on to sin is fine but also to remind us of what sin is.

Can Christians be lulled into a sense of complacency?

[Smalcald]

But being lukewarm in scripture at least in Revelation would mean that we are going to be "spit out".

[tah]

The notion of a Christian who "lives in sin" is an oxymoron. Christians don't live in sin. I John 3 bears this out. The epistle of I John was written as a warning to believers concerning those who claimed to be of the faith but were not. John's epistles were all about how to recognize those who claimed to belong to the fold, but whose profession of faith was not genuine. According to John, the evidence would be born out in their lives. According to John, an evidence of someone whose profession is false is one who lives in habitual sin.

A true Christian is not out looking for a way to sin. The problem is that many in the church lack the courage to be honest about the fact that we have many false professors in the Church taking up space in the pews who say one thing but live another.

The Bible says in Proverbs, "the sacrifices of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord." The writer of Proverbs says that is because they are offered with a wicked heart.

In that passage, a "wicked person" is the person who makes his offering in search of absolution, but is not truly repentant and fully intends to go out and return to the same sin until the next opportunity to seek absolution. There is no provision in the Bible for a person who seeks God's forgiveness, but fully intending to continue living a sinful lifestyle.

In short, a "wicked" person is someone who sins and enjoys it. They are the kind of person who looks for opportunities to sin and they recruit others to join them.

And as a side note, ALL sin is wilful sin. No one "falls into sin," anymore than someone "falls" into rightesousness. It is all willful sin.

In the OT the law refers to unintentional sins. However, unintentional sins are bascially accidental occurrance such as breaking or damaging someone else's property on loan to you.

Another example would be if you are mowing your yard and your mower hits a rock and sends it sailing off and it hits your neighbor in the head.

Unintentional sins in the Bible are not moral failures or shortcomings. They are accidents or mistakes incurred the normal process of life about which there was no foreknowledge that such an event would occur.

If committing a "wilful" sin is enough to render you unsaved, there are no saved people on this planet.

Amen...

and I sleep at night ..osas...safe in my Fathers care.... and He is a faithful disciplinarian...

[Fez]

I think everyone of us gets complacent from time to time, that is why church, homegroups and fellowship is so important. To stop us getting complacent, the more we are in the Word..........

Also I believe once saved, one cannot be "unsaved". We will all be judged differently when He returns.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Fez

[deut31:12]

The notion of a Christian who "lives in sin" is an oxymoron. Christians don't live in sin. I John 3 bears this out. The epistle of I John was written as a warning to believers concerning those who claimed to be of the faith but were not. John's epistles were all about how to recognize those who claimed to belong to the fold, but whose profession of faith was not genuine. According to John, the evidence would be born out in their lives. According to John, an evidence of someone whose profession is false is one who lives in habitual sin.

A true Christian is not out looking for a way to sin. The problem is that many in the church lack the courage to be honest about the fact that we have many false professors in the Church taking up space in the pews who say one thing but live another.

I would have to agree with you, but first, wee know that Christians can sin -

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph. 5:2-5)

This is speaking specifically of Christians because we are the only ones considered to be saints in the NT. This specifically says that after we have become Christians we are not to even let any of these sins be named once amongst us. This would take a lot of repentance, faith, and strength to not give over back to them.

This is not to say that a Christian will never sin. We will sin and 1 John tells us if we confess our sins he is faith and just to forgive them. What God does not like is when we choose to become Christians and don't give our lives wholly unto Christ by taking up our crosses and following him. If I am doing my best and just happen to "fall into a sin", which means that one day my desire to partake was stronger than my will to not partake, God has allowed us to go to him in prayer and seek forgiveness. These things won't lose you your salvation.

What will lose you your salvation is when you either walk out on God or you have chosen to keep certain sins in your life that you do not want to repent of. This is where I would have to agree with you, to some point, that there are many people in this world that consider themselves to be Christians, but are homosexuals, thieves, liars, live in fornication, and any of the other works of the flesh that we are told will keep us out of heaven. These are NOT Christians to begin with or they are fallen away Christians.

for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia. - 2 Timothy 4:10

Demas forsook Christianity because he loved this world.

The scripture that talks about nobody taking me from God is not talking about the ability of my purposely leaving God for the love of sin and this world. I can take myself right out.

You are right that a true Christian will not look to keep sin, but that doesn't mean that a true Christian can't forsake God to go back into the world for the luxury of sin. When you find that somebody, who claims to be a Christian, purposely lives in sin thinking they don't need to repent of it they either where never a Christian or they are a fallen away Christian.

Many times people have thought that if I commit one sin I am fallen away or forsake God. That is not the case and God's mercy is always there for those seeking it. What makes me not a Christian or a fallen away Christian is when I prefer to keep sin in my life without wanting to repent of it.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. - 2 John 1:8-9

We can lose what we have if we do not abide in the doctrine of Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

What God does not like is when we choose to become Christians and don't give our lives wholly unto Christ by taking up our crosses and following him.

Then such a person never became a Christian to start with.

I would have to agree with you, but first, wee know that Christians can sin -

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph. 5:2-5)

This is speaking specifically of Christians because we are the only ones considered to be saints in the NT. This specifically says that after we have become Christians we are not to even let any of these sins be named once amongst us. This would take a lot of repentance, faith, and strength to not give over back to them.

It bears pointing out that Paul is still referring to those who live in habitual sin and/or glorify it. A person who continues to live in sin clearly shows that their profession of faith was not genuine.

What will lose you your salvation is when you either walk out on God or you have chosen to keep certain sins in your life that you do not want to repent of.

See, the thing is though, when a person is born again, they have a new set of desires and aspirations. If a person claims to have become a Christian, but refuses to give up certain sins, then their testimony is not genuine.

I am not referring to those might still struggle with a certain sin AFTER salvation. There is a difference between a former alchoholic who still has to battle with the effects of a physiological chemical addiction after salvation even though he has been delivered from the spiritual bondage of alcoholism, and someone who seeks to justify their continuing in alcholism after salvation.

When a person is born again, they are a new creation in Christ. That is the litmus test. Do they have new set of desires? Can I sleep with all the women I want to? Can I do as many drugs as I want to? The thing is, when you get saved, you get a new set of "want to's."

You are right that a true Christian will not look to keep sin, but that doesn't mean that a true Christian can't forsake God to go back into the world for the luxury of sin.

I am not so sure about that anymore. I used to believe that, but the more I study this out, the less I am convinced. The reason I say that is that there are "Christians" and there are Christians. What I mean is, there are people who assent mentally, to the Christian faith. They can speak in "Christianese," they are faithful church goers, they tithe, sing in the choir, do all of the "religious" stuff, but none of that makes them followers of Christ. Externally, from a religious standpoint, they are nearly indiscernable from real Christians. They mentally assent to the Christian "religion," which is why falling away is so easy. The flesh can be religious, but it has nothing to guard against temptation.

I really believe we will be shocked one day to find out who was and was not saved. I have heard multiple stories of PREACHERS getting saved AFTER they have been in ministry for several years! There are a lot of "religious" people out there, and it is my concern that due to a lack of genuine discipleship in the church, there a lot of people who are unsaved but are sitting in pews every Sunday not realizing that they are on their way to hell.

I believe the book of 1 John addresses this issue in that he lists ways to spot those who are what I call, "false professors." They have the religious trappings, but John shows us how to recognize the false professors beyond their external religiousity, namely be noting their character as believers.

I do not believe that a true follower of Christ can go back into a full-blown life of sin. I believe that is contrary to the concept of a new creation.

The scripture that talks about nobody taking me from God is not talking about the ability of my purposely leaving God for the love of sin and this world. I can take myself right out.

I don't believe that a true follower of Christ would ever seek to get out.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. - 2 John 1:8-9

We can lose what we have if we do not abide in the doctrine of Christ.

John is talking about losing our reward. Salvation is a gift, not a reward. A reward is what you earn for faithful service.

Secondly, the context pertains to false teachers who pervert the true doctrine of Christ. What is the doctrine of Christ that John is referring to? The doctrine of Christ refers to the doctrine concering who Jesus was/is, His Deity, sinlessess, His personage as the Son of God, His finished work on the cross, His current office as High Priest and His 2nd coming, just to name a few. Basically John is telling us how to recognize false teachers; those who reject the correct doctrine concerning Christ.

The issue in that passage does not have losing salvation in view.