JESUS = Rabi?

October 19, 2008

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.
First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

What is being asserted is that Jesus was a man of His times. He lived as a Jew, since He was a Jew. Neither I nor anyone else is saying that Jesus got His teachings from the Pharisees, but rather, I am saying that Jesus went through the normal channels He would have had to have gone through like anyone else in the rabbinical community. He had disciples just like other Rabbis did He wore the tassels just like other Jewish men did. He alluded to the Talmud several times in His teachings, and was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

We have on record that He was at Festivals of Chanukhah, Passover and the Festival of Tabernacles. Jesus lived within a Jewish context. What is so hard to accept?

Seeing so many people are reading this thread, I was affraid this wouldn't be seen if I did another edit.

The only place it refers to JESUS being of a priesthood in the scriptures is where HE is refered to an a priest in the order of Melchizadec.

Yes, but no one said anything about Jesus being a priest while living during His earthly ministry. Where do you find that any of us ever said Jesus was priest during His time on earth?

October 19, 2008

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.
First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

....was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

according to Strong ths is what Rabbi means...

my great one, my honourable sir

Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

based on this, yes, it was a term of respect and does not automatically mean one is trained as a "rabbi"

Jesus was called rabbi as he was their teacher, not based on "training"

Yes, it is a term of respect. But So is "professor" So is "Dr." Those are titles of respect, but they are respectful in they acknowledge a particular level of proficiency, competency and accomplishment in a particular field of endeavor. I am sorry, but Jesus was a "Rabbi" and the title of "Rabbi" has always been an earned title.

I realize that Christians stigmas and antagonism against the Jews make not make room for it, but it is true whether you like it or not, whether you want to believe it or not.

kross · October 19, 2008

In essence, JESUS was licensed to preach by some man made religious order that gave HIM HIS authority. It is because of this authority that HE was allowed to preach in the temple
No, that is not what is being asserted.

Jesus simply submitted to the normal channels of operation that were in existence in His day. Jesus was not a rebel. The Bible teaches that we are to obey the laws of the land. Jesus did that. Jesus voluntarily condescended to the legal parameters in existence and operated within those boundaries. There were channels to go through in order to become a Rabbi, and Jesus went through the necessary steps to become a Rabbi.

Jesus as God could have simply marched into the Temple and said whatever He wanted to and no one could have stopped Him, but that was not the example He chose to leave us. Jesus never used His power to advance Himself or to gain anything for Himself. Jesus was able to live perfectly within framework of rabbinical community without necessarily derving His authority from them.

So you are saying that the law would not have allowed HIM to teach the people about GOD without the official title of Rabbi? That HE would not be allowed to talk about GOD to those in the streets without breaking the law. Is that what would have been the law of the times?

kross · October 19, 2008

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.
First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

....was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

according to Strong ths is what Rabbi means...

my great one, my honourable sir

Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

based on this, yes, it was a term of respect and does not automatically mean one is trained as a "rabbi"

Jesus was called rabbi as he was their teacher, not based on "training"

Yes, it is a term of respect. But So is "professor" So is "Dr." Those are titles of respect, but they are respectful in they acknowledge a particular level of proficiency, competency and accomplishment in a particular field of endeavor. I am sorry, but Jesus was a "Rabbi" and the title of "Rabbi" has always been an earned title.

I realize that Christians stigmas and antagonism against the Jews make not make room for it, but it is true whether you like it or not, whether you want to believe it or not.

What word would they have used to refer to their teacher? Is there another Jewish word that means teacher that would have been used for someone that was not an official teacher?

October 19, 2008

If HE was an "official " Rabbi, then doesn't that tie HIM to a religious order? Or am I missing something?

Yes you are.

I know that JESUS lived under the law. What I do not believe is that Rabbi was an official earned title.

Then show ONE Rabbi other than Jesus who simply got to be a Rabbi on the basis of being a good public speaker or whatever. The onus is on you.

In all that I have read in scripture, it was what the people called HIM. I see no recognetion for HIM as a "legitimate" member of any religious order.

Nicodemus who was a member of the Sanhedrin, which is the "supreme court of Israel referred to Jesus as "Rabbi."

It is interesting, but I think I will stick to my silly notion that HIS authority came from GOD and HIS position with the people.

No one said He derived His authority from Man. That is something that is a strawman you are erecting. You are basically trying to project your misconceptions of what I am saying on to me and then arguing against the values you have assigned to my position which is not a very honest debate tactic.

After all, during HIS
time on Earth, the temple was more a plce of politics. The priests, pharisees, and scribe were more afraid of the people then GOD.

With all due respect you do not display a great deal of knowledge regarding the Temple or history of 1st century israel.

Plus, I am absolutely sure that who HE studied under and where HE was licensed to preach would have been recorded in the scriptures

Why would it would have to be??? What obligation would there be to disclose that information?

October 19, 2008

Yes, it is a term of respect. But So is "professor" So is "Dr." Those are titles of respect, but they are respectful in they acknowledge a particular level of proficiency, competency and accomplishment in a particular field of endeavor. I am sorry, but Jesus was a "Rabbi" and the title of "Rabbi" has always been an earned title.

I realize that Christians stigmas and antagonism against the Jews make not make room for it, but it is true whether you like it or not, whether you want to believe it or not.

with all due respect, this is your opinion and nothing else. You truly have nothing to back it up.

I have already backed it up. The problem is that there is no amount of evidence I can provide to someone who is deadset against a point, no matter what. It is called "intellectual suicide." I am Jewish and I know the customs of my people far better than you do. Your pride won't make room for anything you reject out of hand, so rational debate would be lost on you where this issue is concerned.

October 19, 2008

I am surprised that people are willing to believe that JESUS came out of a religeous order.
First of all, who said Jesus "came out of a relgious order?" That is not what is being asserted.

....was called "Rabbi" which was not a term of endearment or something you say to people who are simply good public speakers.

according to Strong ths is what Rabbi means...

my great one, my honourable sir

Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

based on this, yes, it was a term of respect and does not automatically mean one is trained as a "rabbi"

Jesus was called rabbi as he was their teacher, not based on "training"

Yes, it is a term of respect. But So is "professor" So is "Dr." Those are titles of respect, but they are respectful in they acknowledge a particular level of proficiency, competency and accomplishment in a particular field of endeavor. I am sorry, but Jesus was a "Rabbi" and the title of "Rabbi" has always been an earned title.

I realize that Christians stigmas and antagonism against the Jews make not make room for it, but it is true whether you like it or not, whether you want to believe it or not.

What word would they have used to refer to their teacher? Is there another Jewish word that means teacher that would have been used for someone that was not an official teacher?

There was no such thing then and there is no such thing now. Even today, modern Judaism which is eseentially Phariaism and the adjustment it made to the destruction of the Temple do not refer to ANYONE as a Rabbi unless they have bene trained and have been to Yeshiva. That is just fact, and I am sorry, but there is NO Christian on this board that has any historical data to show otherwise.

Rabbi is an earned title. It is not my opinion, it is not jsut something I made up. It is simply the truth. It doesn't matter if you want to believe it or not.

October 19, 2008

I have already backed it up. The problem is that there is no amount of evidence I can provide to someone who is deadset against a point, no matter what. It is called "intellectual suicide." I am Jewish and I know the customs of my people far better than you do. Your pride won't make room for anything you reject out of hand, so rational debate would be lost on you where this issue is concerned.
Then I will rephrase, you can

kross · October 19, 2008

If HE was an "official " Rabbi, then doesn't that tie HIM to a religious order? Or am I missing something?
Yes you are.

I know that JESUS lived under the law. What I do not believe is that Rabbi was an official earned title.
Then show ONE Rabbi other than Jesus who simply got to be a Rabbi on the basis of being a good public speaker or whatever. The onus is on you.

In all that I have read in scripture, it was what the people called HIM. I see no recognetion for HIM as a "legitimate" member of any religious order.
Nicodemus who was a member of the Sanhedrin, which is the "supreme court of Israel referred to Jesus as "Rabbi."

It is interesting, but I think I will stick to my silly notion that HIS authority came from GOD and HIS position with the people.
No one said He derived His authority from Man. That is something that is a strawman you are erecting. You are basically trying to project your misconceptions of what I am saying on to me and then arguing against the values you have assigned to my position which is not a very honest debate tactic.

After all, during HIS
time on Earth, the temple was more a plce of politics. The priests, pharisees, and scribe were more afraid of the people then GOD.
With all due respect you do not display a great deal of knowledge regarding the Temple or history of 1st century israel.

Plus, I am absolutely sure that who HE studied under and where HE was licensed to preach would have been recorded in the scriptures
Why would it would have to be??? What obligation would there be to disclose that information?

I t just seems like a little bit of the hystory of JESUS that would be posted to show the additional ways HE was keeping in step with the law. We have that information about Paul.

How many people have walked on the Earth in the position of JESUS who would have been proclaimed by the common man to be their teacher? If you can tell me who that person is, I will show you another Rabbi who got the title from the masses and as a result of proving that HE was a teacher sent from GOD.

I think you are right, I think I do not understand anything you are teaching here. I will choose to stay in my ignorance on this issue and continue to read what is being said in the hope that my feeble brain will absorb something.

OH, by the way, I used to call my pastor the Rev DR Michael R. Pigg long before he got his doctorate. The common folk do not always wait on cerimony.

October 19, 2008

In the Spirit of the Sons of Zion there is a respect for the authority of government. Yeshua never spoke about rebelling against the authority of men because He understood the concept of them being there by His Father's authority.

His Father has given us the choice of blessing or curse in the Torah (Deut 30). The spirit of the law is universal though the letter of that law was given specifically to Israel...and those nations who "come unto Thy Light" (Isaiah 60)

The Spirit of the Law IS the Spirit of Holiness aka Ruach HaKodesh, the Holy Spirit.

Yeshua was completely submitted to that....but that is diabolically opposed to the greek spirit because it is one of authority through submission and humility whereas the greek spirit of Yeshua's day was one of authority through the power of men ruling over men. The Lord spoke to Israel about what would happen when they desired a king like the other nations and this is the result He warned us about. "Civilization" as we know it is a concept that started on Crete with Greek philosophy at the same time as Alexander the Great.

And many jews were becoming "hellensized" in Israel about the time of the Maccabees ( about 150 years before Advent). The reaction was the genesis of the Pharisaical movement...and equal and opposite reaction. This was also where the High Priest ceased being a direct decendant of Eliazar, son of Aaron. It became a political office which could be bought and sold.

It is into this context that a baby was born of a virgin in Beit Lechem. This child grew up with Pharisees as spiritual guides and the Romans as civil authority. He never speaks against their "authority" but rather speaks to their heart's attitude in His authority. There were jews and Romans being received by Him all along the way.

side note: I find it interesting that Tiberias was considered unclean by the Pharisees and there is no record of Yeshua ever going to the "big city" across that small Sea of Galilee which was much closer than most of the places the text puts Him in. No mention whatsoever. Evidently the Romans built the city on a jewish burial ground.

And Yeshua says, "the greatest among you will be the servant of all". He says this in comparison to "the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them but it shall not be so among you"

Ours is a different kind of authority than the world's authority...yet that doesn't mean we can disrespect local authority except in cases of idolotry or protecting innocent life.