The Deity of Christ

November 5, 2008

I don't know. There is still nothing out there that can convince me that Jesus is God, especially with all of the verses that say otherwise.
Sorry, but there no verses that deny Jesus Deity. Jesus' Deity is well attested in both Old and New Testaments. The problem is that you don't want to be convinced. It is hardness of heart, not a lack of evidence that is at the root of your unbelief.

Jesus is divine, yes. But he is not God. He is God's Son. They are separate.

One cannot be Divine and not be God. Divinity speaks to essence. God is Divine. That is His essence. To say Jesus is Divine but not God is like saying "John is a man, but not Human." It is a logical impossibility.

This is something I have cited in the past concering the phrase "son of..."

In Jewish usage, the term

November 5, 2008

I don't know. There is still nothing out there that can convince me that Jesus is God, especially with all of the verses that say otherwise.
Sorry, but there no verses that deny Jesus Deity. Jesus' Deity is well attested in both Old and New Testaments. The problem is that you don't want to be convinced. It is hardness of heart, not a lack of evidence that is at the root of your unbelief.

Jesus is divine, yes. But he is not God. He is God's Son. They are separate.

One cannot be Divine and not be God. Divinity speaks to essence. God is Divine. That is His essence. To say Jesus is Divine but not God is like saying "John is a man, but not Human." It is a logical impossibility.

This is something I have cited in the past concering the phrase "son of..."

In Jewish usage, the term

November 5, 2008

QUOTE
In John 14:28, Jesus is referring to the relationship of the Father and the Himself as the Son. He is not deny His Deity. Jesus is a separate person in the Godhead, but not a separate God.

So, Jesus is a separate personage in the Godhead, but he is somehow still part of one God? That doesn't make any sense.

Again, that is because you are confusing "being" with "person. God is one being, one essence. There are no multiple gods. There is ONE God, eternally existant.

Yet this one God is made up of three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All three are God, but they are separate persons. It is simple explain, but impossible to comprehend.

It is a mystery and part of God's existance that neither I nor the greatest minds in Christian theology can make sense of. God operates on a level of reality that is incomprehensible to us. If we could comprehend Him, He wouldn't be God.

QUOTE
In John 20: 17-18, Jesus is speaking in terms of His humanity. Jesus was fully man and fully God. As a man, Jesus honored the Father as the one true God. That is not a denial of Deity as He is not separate in essence from the Father. Both are fully God. Jesus, among other thing provided a righteous model for us to follow and in His flesh He honored the Father as God and we should as well

Again this logic is ludicrous. How can he be God, but still be subject to that same God?

Because He is God, but it is His Person as the Son, that is subject to the Person of the Father. Actually, in this particular instance, It is Jesus' humanity demonstating subordination to God. Jesus was fully Human and full God. He was human in ways like unto us, and yet He retained His Deity, which He shared with the Father from the indeterminable eternal past. It was not a case of God being in subordination to God, it was the Son in subordination to the Father.

You should read up on the hypostatic union to understand the relationship better.

November 5, 2008

Wrong. The Bible NEVER claims Jesus is "A" god. There is only one God. You are confusing being with person. "God" refers to being. "Son"refers to person. The person of Jesus as Son of God is subordinate to the person of the Father. However, Jesus is God as much as the Father.

So, the person of Jesus as the Son is a separate person, subordinate to the Father, but Jesus is still somehow fully God and is his own father?

And everyone on here says their gospel is simple.

No, that is not what I said. The Father and the Son are not one and the same Person. Jesus is not both the Son and the Father. Father and Son are entirely separate. Jesus is not subordinate in essence as God. He is subordinate as the Person of the Son of God.

You are trying to comprehend an incomprehensible mystery of the Godhead.

traveller · November 5, 2008

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I would find it extraordinary if mere humans could figure out Almighty God, when even His word says it's a mystery.

November 5, 2008

QUOTE
Again, that is because you are confusing "being" with "person. God is one being, one essence. There are no multiple gods. There is ONE God, eternally existant.

Incorrect. God is the Father, Christ is his son. Every verse attests to this fact, even the famous John 3:16

The problem is that you are still confusing concepts. God even as a being, is often represented in the male pronoun. Most undersand this male pronoun unless otherwise stipulated to reference the Father Himself. In some cases, it even refers to the entire Godhead.

QUOTE
Yet this one God is made up of three distinct persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All three are God, but they are separate persons. It is simple explain, but impossible to comprehend.

So they are three separate people, but they are still one person...still doesn't make sense.

No, separate persons but one being, one essence. You are not reading close enough.

QUOTE
It is a mystery and part of God's existance that neither I nor the greatest minds in Christian theology can make sense of. God operates on a level of reality that is incomprehensible to us. If we could comprehend Him, He wouldn't be God.

How can you expect to have a relationship with God if you can't even understand what he is? I would hate being in such a situation.

Because that is not the biblical basis for the relationship. I have a relationship with the Father because the Son paid the pentalty of my sin and satisfied the Father's justice. I place my faith in God's grace wrought from the finished work of Christ on the cross. I am no longer spiritually separated from God.

November 5, 2008

Wrong. The Bible NEVER claims Jesus is "A" god. There is only one God. You are confusing being with person. "God" refers to being. "Son"refers to person. The person of Jesus as Son of God is subordinate to the person of the Father. However, Jesus is God as much as the Father.

So, the person of Jesus as the Son is a separate person, subordinate to the Father, but Jesus is still somehow fully God and is his own father?

And everyone on here says their gospel is simple.

No, that is not what I said. The Father and the Son are not one and the same Person. Jesus is not both the Son and the Father. Father and Son are entirely separate. Jesus is not subordinate in essence as God. He is subordinate as the Person of the Son of God.

You are trying to comprehend an incomprehensible mystery of the Godhead.

But you just said Jesus is God. You also said Jesus is the son of God. If that is the case, the Son is the same as the Father.

If said Jesus is both Father and Son, then there would be problem. Jesus is God in essence and the Son of God in person. In ancient Hebrew thought, "Son of" denotes equality of essence. Son of God is equal to God.

Jesus is equal to the Father as God, but is subordinate as Son.

Botz · November 5, 2008

Can you just explain to me how you believe all things were created 'through' the Messiah, and not 'by' the Messiah.

Botz,

Sorry, for any confusion ,I realy appreicate any help you can provide about posting on the board.
I just figured out I can hit

jmwhalen · November 5, 2008

I don't know. There is still nothing out there that can convince me that Jesus is God, especially with all of the verses that say otherwise.
Sorry, but there no verses that deny Jesus Deity. Jesus' Deity is well attested in both Old and New Testaments. The problem is that you don't want to be convinced. It is hardness of heart, not a lack of evidence that is at the root of your unbelief.

Jesus is divine, yes. But he is not God. He is God's Son. They are separate.

One cannot be Divine and not be God. Divinity speaks to essence. God is Divine. That is His essence. To say Jesus is Divine but not God is like saying "John is a man, but not Human." It is a logical impossibility.

This is something I have cited in the past concering the phrase "son of..."

In Jewish usage, the term

BlindSeeker · November 5, 2008

So what'd the Bible mean when Christ says: "For my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

Admittedly, the most common stumbling block concerning Jesus' deity is an apparent inability to answer the question, "How can Jesus be the Everlasting Father and still pray to the Father?"

Good question. Nevertheless, Isaiah did say the "Prince of Peace" would be none other than "The Mighty God." Indeed it is a mystery, but just because something is a mystery does not make it impossible. A mystery is simply proof of ignorance, and a lack of knowledge and understanding.

A good basic guideline for understanding Christ, the God/man, is to remember that God in His pure essence "is a spirit" (John 4:24). By Jesus' own words we know that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:29). Therefore, God in His pure essence as a spirit is not limited to a finite visible form. Being omnipresent, He is everywhere all the time, throughout time, at the same time - past, present, future.

However, when God was manifested in the flesh (I Tim 3:16) as Jesus he was temporarily locked in time and space by His humanity. In this incarnation Jesus through prayer communed with His Omnipresent Spirit, "the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity" (Isaiah 57:15). It was the limitations of His incarnation in human frailty that Jesus acknowledges as inferior to the omnipresence and omnipotence of the Father.

I have shared this before, but consider this, if you could simply go back one minute in time you could both see and be with yourself. You could even talk to yourself. Would that make you two? Certainly it would seem as if there was two. Nevertheless, in truth you are still only one. One in heart, one in mind, but in two places. It is ability to escape from time's restrictions that affords you the ability to be in two places simultaneously. You, from the future, could warn yourself of what is yet to come. This is what Jesus revealed to Nicodemus. "No man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven," (John 3:13). Jesus was there talking to Nicodemus, yet referring to Himself as "is in heaven." It is this unique aspect of God's Omnipresence by which He knows those who would be saved from the foundations of the world.

"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am He" (Isaiah 41:4).

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel will stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isaiah 46:9,10).

"I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of My mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. I have even from the beginning declared it to thee: before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them" (Isaiah 48:3,5).

At Athens Paul encourage the men to "seek the Lord [Jesus], if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us: for in Him we live and move and have our very being . . . " (Acts 17:27,28). Again in Psalm 139 David reasons with God saying, "Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of morning, and dwell In the uttermost parts of the sea: even there shall Your hand lead me and Your right hand hold me" (Verses 7-10).