The Deity of Christ

November 9, 2008

Part 2

QUOTE
Yes, because it goes to usage and context. The Bible refers to the angels as sons of God, and even refers to Christians as the sons of God. However in reference to Jesus, the usage as THE Son of God takes on a different usage because it is used in a different context.

You base the context on the assumption Christ is God, so that context only is applicable only to those who believe Christ is divine. Hence this type of defense is worthless, especially in a discussion on Christ divinity

That is not so, mike.

Here is the text in context:

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Romans 8:35-39)

Paul refers to the love of Christ and the Love of God interchangably. The plain sense of the text tells us that the love of God IS the love of Christ. The love of God is in Christ in that He is the manifestation, the revelation of God's love. Jesus' entire ministry was about showing mankind the true heart of the Father. Jesus' love IS God's love. God's love could not be in Jesus if Jesus was not God.

QUOTE
Yep that is true, so far, you havent' been able to produce on shred of evidence that I am mistaken.

No. Above I have proven how impractical your justification is.

Second it is well known the term Son of God can be applied to many non divine beings.

Third, by saying something is the son of God, eliminates it from being God. Son of anything means it is not that thing, but similar to that thing.

Fourth, you haven't been able to produce one shred of evidence that ison of God is a claim of divinity. I feel I have proven your assumption incorrect.

1. You're pretty fast and loose with the word "proven." You have not proven anything. You simply ignore evidence. I provided more than once in this thread scholarly evidence from a source outside of myself which clearly states that "Son of God" when applied to Jesus refers to Jesus' Deity. You have not provided any sources that refute it. You have not provided any evidence, much less, proof.

2. Yes, and Bible is careful to deliniate the way it uses that phrase in reference to nondivine beings. The usage is not the same, and word usage is far more important, as it reveals the intent of the author.

3. Only in the sense of a paternal, human relationship between father and son. As it pertains to God, "Son of God" refers to Jesus' rank in the Godhead.

4. I have provided evidence in post #100. Here it is again: In Jewish usage, the term

November 10, 2008

God made a covenant with Abram, the covenant was dependant on Abram ability to,

November 10, 2008

Part 2

Yes it is very true, don

Botz · November 10, 2008

Bolz I promise to get back to you , sorry

No worries Mike...answer others first, I am in no rush, but will keep watching the conversation..thanks for letting me know that you have forgotten me though. Zobt

November 11, 2008

That is nice, but the scripture I gave was Gen 17 not 15

I know that mike. I was just correcting your misunderstanding. The covenant of Abraham and what its requirements are, are found in chapter 15, not 17. Chapter 17 and Abraham's walk before God are a response to God's covenant, not the basis of it. God does not share His glory with man. The covenant with Abraham was cut back in Chapter 15, several years before the conversation with God in chapter 17.

The covenant WAS based on Abraham

Botz · November 11, 2008

Thanks for getting back to me Mike...I have read over the things you have written several times.

I think you must understand, (and most of us are like the rest of us) that I believe 100% in the L-rd Jesus our Messiah I also believe, experience and am utterly convinced by the Spirit and the Scriptures that He is Himself G-d.

Knowing this, I do not go around telling people to believe that Jesus is G-d...In the past I have given them the gospel and talked about the love of G-d demonstrated by G-ds own Son etc...and in the process came the personal revelation by faith of the nature of the one in whom they placed their trust.

BUT the New Covenant does not hide or try to confuse this issue...the whole of Scripture is suffused with clues as to the very nature of Messiah...never more clearly seen than in the book of Revelations....but ultimately it is the Spirit Himself who reveals this truth to a person and not just a reading of the word or head knowledge.

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

WayneB · November 11, 2008

Sorry, my position still remains unchallenged as you cannot produce a clear proof from the Bible.

Mike, why are you here? You seem to have made up your mind. What is your desire?

Friend, my understanding of God's nature is unshakable. I may not be the scholar that Botz and Shiloh are but I can read and understand God's Word..and I am smart enough to listen to the scholars and like the men of Berea, measure what I hear against Scripture.

I expressed my thoughts in a study some time ago regarding who Jesus is to me and I'd like to share it with you...not for debate or dissection but simply for your consideration.

Jesus is about God becoming personal...

Since the fall of man, have you ever really considered the progression of how God reestablished His presence among men over time, restoring our personal relationship with Him? When you consider what we have today, the great GIFT that we have been given, it should humble all men so that every knee bows and every tongue confesses, Jesus as Lord! One day, all men will, one way or the other, do just that! Romans 14:11; Isaiah 45:23

I was rereading Exodus the other day and came along this passage of Scripture in Exodus:

God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them. Exodus 6:2,3 NASB

The Amplified version states:

And God said to Moses, I am the Lord. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty [El-Shaddai], but by My name the Lord [Yahweh--the redemptive name of God] I did not make Myself known to them [in acts and great miracles].

Do you see it?

For some reason, this passage of Scripture was a revelation to me. Here was the great I AM who had instructed Noah to build an ark, established a covenant with Abraham, wrestled with His son Jacob

BlindSeeker · November 11, 2008

Produce from the Bible an explanation . . .

Produce where it is explained . . .

Produce a verse that says . . .

Produce where the Bible explains in words that would make sense . . .

Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him,

speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the

mysteries

of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the

mystery

, which was kept secret since the world began.

1Co 2:7 But

we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery

, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the

mystery

, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:26 Even the

mystery

which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.

Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the

mystery

of Christ, for which I am also in bonds

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the

mystery

of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Perhaps mike you can explain why Paul addresses basically three mysteries that are combined in one in Colossians 2:2 -

That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of

the full assurance of understanding

, to the acknowledgement of

(1)

the mystery

of God, and

(2) [

the mystery

]

of the Father, and

(2) [

the mystery

]

of Christ.

Let's forget the inclusion of Christ in the verse for the sake of answering just this part . . . why is there as mystery of God and of the Father? Are they not the same?

In light of this acknowledged biblical mystery concerning the Gospel of Christ how do you explain -

2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by

(1)

manifestation of the truth

commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3

(2)

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost

:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest

(3)

the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God

, should shine unto them.

November 12, 2008

QUOTE
The covenant with Abraham was cut back in Chapter 15, several years before the conversation with God in chapter 17.

Gen.17:1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

God didn

traveller · November 12, 2008

I am done.

Brother -thank you so much for all your work in this thread. I was blessed tremendously in the reading of it, and in the contemplation of it. You're a true force in the Lord's service, Shiloh. Blessings to you, brother.