Seven Churches

[canuckamuck]

The scriptures give us a hint of what that god looks like. It is vague and only mentioned once, and if one isn't paying attention, it is easy to overlook.

If you are referring to a specific verse, please tell us which one.

[Doowopjock]

I heard it said once that an "idol" can be anything a person "uses" as a "god" or "puts in front of God" (in importance). It was said that--for example--wanting to skip church attendance to catch the start of a ball game may be an indication that sports have become an idol to such a person, or that maybe foregoing the care of a sick friend or relative who is depending on you for same in order to attend church might even suggest a person's church has become his idol. If this is true, there seems to be a line drawn somewhere between what is idolatry and what isn't. I'm not sure how to tell the difference, other than to just acknowledge God in all my ways and counting on Him to order my steps. It's my guess that this would seem to correspond to the admonishment to the church at Ephesus (referring to the OP) in not keeping their first Love (Christ Jesus) in prominence, even though I'm still not certain how it relates (if at all) to the erroneous doctrines flourishing at Pergamos or the "spirit of Jezebel" mentioned of Thyatira. I'm led to believe the "effects" of such practices had already taken root at Sardis and Laodicea.

[lekh l'kha]

I heard it said once that an "idol" can be anything a person "uses" as a "god" or "puts in front of God" (in importance). It was said that--for example--wanting to skip church attendance to catch the start of a ball game may be an indication that sports have become an idol to such a person, or that maybe foregoing the care of a sick friend or relative who is depending on you for same in order to attend church might even suggest a person's church has become his idol. If this is true, there seems to be a line drawn somewhere between what is idolatry and what isn't. I'm not sure how to tell the difference, other than to just acknowledge God in all my ways and counting on Him to order my steps. It's my guess that this would seem to correspond to the admonishment to the church at Ephesus (referring to the OP) in not keeping their first Love (Christ Jesus) in prominence, even though I'm still not certain how it relates (if at all) to the erroneous doctrines flourishing at Pergamos or the "spirit of Jezebel" mentioned of Thyatira. I'm led to believe the "effects" of such practices had already taken root at Sardis and Laodicea.

I think that it has to do with to what extent Christians in any congregation, from "overseer" level down are determined to remain "in" but totally "set apart" from the world.

The difficulty for Christ's churches down through the ages is, we live in a culture with a "zeitgeist" - a "spirit of the age"; and a culture with a paradigm; and a culture with a world-outlook.

Not only do we grow up with it, we grow up in it, and the culture of the day affects the church.

This situation becomes even more accented when the church is accepted by society as a part of society, and is free to meet, to teach, to proselytize ("proselytize" in the eyes of society).

Persecution separates the real sheep from the others, and the sheep become truly "set apart".

Jesus does not expect us to separate ourselves physically from the world around us - but He does command us to separate ourselves mentally, spiritually, and even socially (certain parties are not fit for saints to join).

Instead, the church in general brings the society of the day with its zeitgeist and culture into the church - through its world-outlook, its music, its dress, its customs, its everything.

Would Jesus walk into a church and feel comfortable while the kind of music played by some church-bands is being played?

Would He ever have walked into a church where people were curtsying to statues and praying to dead saints?

How many churches would Jesus walk into?

The thing for the 7 churches is the same as the thing for today's churches - dead (no longer even preach the one and only true gospel), or lukewarm, or spiritually adulterous, venerating false prophets (the Jezebels of the day) and money.

And it's always intimately linked with the extent to which individual Christians in individual congregations are prepared to "come out of the world and be separate".

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[Doowopjock]

Just wanted to interject at this point, I really appreciate what all you folx "bring to the table" here. This is all excellent "food for thought", as it were.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Doowopjock

[Guest man]

The scriptures give us a hint of what that god looks like. It is vague and only mentioned once, and if one isn't paying attention, it is easy to overlook.

If you are referring to a specific verse, please tell us which one.

1 Corinthians 11

1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.

5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.

6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.

8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man.

9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.

10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.

12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

[canuckamuck]

Man, I really want to get what you are saying, but I don't see the idol reference in this scripture.

As for me living in Thailand, I can tell you classic idolatry is alive and well over here. 95% of the population are heavily into this in their homegrown version of Buddhism. Idols are absolutely everywhere, in the taxis, in the schools, around peoples necks, and of course gigantic images all of the country of various supernatural beings. People burn incense to them, offer them food, make special rooms in their houses for them. Images of royalty are considered with the same veneration so one cannot step on money to keep it from blowing down the street, because the king's image is on it..

But I think that Doowopjock hit the nail on the head in his last post. Idols are what we put in front of God. Science, and money are the big idols of this age, at least for the West. We must keep these elements in proper perspective, and bow down only to God.

[Guest man]

Man, I really want to get what you are saying, but I don't see the idol reference in this scripture.

One needs to think outside the box when looking at these verses. The ones that are highlighted in red are the key to the puzzle. There is no direct reference to idols, but once you see it, it should become clear. I will explain later. I'm getting ready for work right now and really don't have the time.

As for me living in Thailand, I can tell you classic idolatry is alive and well over here. 95% of the population are heavily into this in their homegrown version of Buddhism. Idols are absolutely everywhere, in the taxis, in the schools, around peoples necks, and of course gigantic images all of the country of various supernatural beings. People burn incense to them, offer them food, make special rooms in their houses for them. Images of royalty are considered with the same veneration so one cannot step on money to keep it from blowing down the street, because the king's image is on it..

Every religion has their idols, christianity is no different.

But I think that Doowopjock hit the nail on the head in his last post. Idols are what we put in front of God. Science, and money are the big idols of this age, at least for the West. We must keep these elements in proper perspective, and bow down only to God.

While those things can be considered idols, they do not make promises of eternal life in the presense of our Creator. The idol that I will tell you about does just that.

Most people when they hear this will become offended. I've grown used to that.

[Doowopjock]

Man, I really want to get what you are saying, but I don't see the idol reference in this scripture.

One needs to think outside the box when looking at these verses. The ones that are highlighted in red are the key to the puzzle. There is no direct reference to idols, but once you see it, it should become clear. I will explain later. I'm getting ready for work right now and really don't have the time.

As for me living in Thailand, I can tell you classic idolatry is alive and well over here. 95% of the population are heavily into this in their homegrown version of Buddhism. Idols are absolutely everywhere, in the taxis, in the schools, around peoples necks, and of course gigantic images all of the country of various supernatural beings. People burn incense to them, offer them food, make special rooms in their houses for them. Images of royalty are considered with the same veneration so one cannot step on money to keep it from blowing down the street, because the king's image is on it..

Every religion has their idols, christianity is no different.

But I think that Doowopjock hit the nail on the head in his last post. Idols are what we put in front of God. Science, and money are the big idols of this age, at least for the West. We must keep these elements in proper perspective, and bow down only to God.

While those things can be considered idols, they do not make promises of eternal life in the presense of our Creator. The idol that I will tell you about does just that.

Most people when they hear this will become offended. I've grown used to that.

OK, well you've got my attention anyway--I'll stay tuned in.

Canuck, I've heard about the kind of idols like what you're mentioning here. One of my dearest friends is a Christian from India who says this same kind of thing goes on there as well (and the population there is predominantly Hindu). I even read somewhere--though I can't remember right off exactly where--that there are demons which inhabit these graven images. Although I haven't ever been overseas and exposed to such a thing--it doesn't hurt my feelings any that I haven't, if ya' know what I mean.

[Guest man]

Ok, here's what I see.

Take a look at these 2 verses.

14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

Long hair was given to women as a head covering, it was never given to men. It actually states that it is a shame or a dishoner for a man to have long hair.

Now look at these 2 verses.

3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.

Pay particularly close attention to who the head of Christ is. Now look at what it says about any "man" who prays with his head covered. That individual dishonors his head.

Long hair was given as a head covering. Jesus was a man. If He had long hair, He would not only be dishonoring Himself, He would also be dishonoring the Father.

Now be totally honest with yourselves. Do you think Christ would do that?

If your answer is no, as it should be, who is that person in the picture we have all come to recognize as Jesus?

I'll stop here for now. There is more, but I would like to hear some feedback on this.

Tell me what you're thinking.

[OneLight]

Yes, allow me to ask a question about the length of hair. From my studies, the woman's hair was long enough to wrap around themselves as a vale, hiding their face to the sandstorms and honor. Men would not have hair like this, but how short is too long? 1 inch ... how about 3 inches ... maybe up to 12 inches? As long as it was not down to their waste, it was not like woman's covering, but that would be pushing it too much. This would also lead one to believe that a shaved head is best, but didn't a shaved head mean that took an oath?

I think this is way too legalistic, but hey, been down this road before ...