Lucy and our faith

[Guest man]

evolution

1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

thefreedictionary.com

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If "X" evolved into "O", where is the evidence of that transition?

Why is it we only have "X" and "O" and nothing in between?

If they can find "X", and they can find "O", why can't they find how "X" became "O"?

Countless millions of fossils and they have nothing.

[Hunterpoet]

Keep digging mtmom, Lucy was a fraud, made from human and primate bones. The folks who made her up ( if i recall correctly) were neevr prosecuted or made to return grant money, but the scietific community(the good ones) exposed all this shortly making their claim.

[Leonard]

They have admitted that "Lucy's" bones were found over a three mile length of the gorge, and at elevations changed by as much as 50 feet!

If THAT'S science, I'm the Kalif of Baghdad!

[nebula]

I saw a documentary on the finding of Lucy.

In there they did originally i.d. the remains as female.

A point I found interesting was that in the same area, dated to the same time, they found found an ulna (one of the forearm bones, the one that makes the elbow joint) that was significantly larger than the one on Lucy. The comparison would be like looking at a child's bone and an adult's bone, it was that different. Although they came up with possible ideas for how to explain this, they never did come to a difinitive conclusion; the question was left hanging and forgotten.

So, evidence that contradicted the theory that was built and/or strengthened around Lucy was basically discounted from the scenario. "We can't figure anything out from this, so let's pretend we never found it." No, that's not what they said, but that's the feeling you are left with.

As for the pelvis, yes it was crushed. It was found that way. Whether they put it back together properly or not is not a question can know for sure, though.

One thing for sure, though, if I am recalling right, although they orintation of the pelvis they put together matched an upright walker, the hole in the skull which the spinal cord passes through (foramen magnum) matches the rest of the apes and not an upright walker. Figure that one out!

[Guest man]

I was asked the question how I reconciled my faith with the discovery of "Lucy" in Africa. First I had to find out what/who "Lucy" was. I now have a book about her discovery and dating of the skeleton (there is also information on the internet). Has anybody tried to answer this? The question came from a believer who is now struggling with faith - if that helps frame the question any better.

Evolution is a theory and a theory is nothing more than a guess.

No, it is not a "guess". Learn some basics before you post.

Calling it a guess is pretty basic.

I guess I could've used these terms,

Speculation,

Conjecture,

Hypothesis,

Supposition,

An assumption,

An abstract thought,

etc, etc, etc,

Calling it a guess was just easier.

[Guest man]

Go to Google or Yahoo and do a search on "lucy hoax".

Is that really what you want people to do? Be careful what you wish for.

Yes.

And then google "evolution hoax".

[Matthitjah]

Go to Google or Yahoo and do a search on "lucy hoax".

Is that really what you want people to do? Be careful what you wish for.

Yes.

And then google "evolution hoax".

I did, but I try real hard not to bother with creationists rants. Thanks anyway.

Jukia,

Did you come here for an honest open discussion because it appears that you seem upset at anyone examining the veracity of the claims made on Lucy. I'm always puzzeled when an atheist does this because they do the exact opposite when it comes to examining our Faith.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

mtmom,

You really need to examine all the evidence and then make an educated determination for yourself.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Jukia,

Did you come here for an honest open discussion because it appears that you seem upset at anyone examining the veracity of the claims made on Lucy. I'm always puzzeled when an atheist does this because they do the exact opposite when it comes to examining our Faith.

Peace,

Dave

An honest, open discussion? Sure. But a discussion on this topic should include evidence, citations to the literature would be helpful.

None of the claims raised have been verified. If someone can do that, fine. For example:

1. Post #2 RigMedic claims Lucy is a male and claims the pelvis shows that. Got any info on that other than his assertion. RigMedic has made a study of the primate pelvis? Got a cite to that? Got a cite to the other "more educated scientists"

2. Same post, the knee was found 1.6 miles away". I believe that is factually incorrect. If Rig has a cite, then he should post it.

3. Man states that a "theory is nothing more than a guess" post #3 and follows up with some synonyms for guess, post # 20. Good command of English, bad understanding of science. In science a theory is not a guess. It is a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations. Evolution is a theory. But in science that is not a bad thing.

4. AyinJade, post #9 states the difference between a male and female pelvis is "quite profound". Aside from the fact that may not be true in all primates (I do not know) it appears AJ has taken at face value the unsupported claim of RigMedic. I suggested, post # 14, that she track down the guy in Phoenix should she live near there. Has she???

5. AyinJade, post #10 suggests that scientists hide facts. My guess is she could make a lot of $ being a whistle blower on all those dishonest scientists. I think the Feds might pay if she can uncover fraudulent use of grant $. Simply another unsupported allegation.

6. Hunterpoet post # 12 states Lucy is made from primate AND human bones. Got a citation for that? If that is the case Hunterpoet should be in the forefront of whistle blowers, and if that is the case I'll join him. But before I take that case on I'd like a bit more evidence.

7. Leonard, post #17 claims Lucy was found over 3 miles with changes in elevation. See my comment #6.

8. Nebula, #19, suggests that a bigger bone found nearby was much larger than Lucy and this "evidence contradicted the theory". What theory is that? Cannot try to understand what the contradiction is unless we have some idea of the theory. Perhaps it was an ulna from a different species, perhaps from a male? Neb also suggests that while the pelvis seemed to suggest bipedal upright locomotion, the skull suggests otherwise, that is interesting and if she had provided a cite for that it would be helpful.

See #6 and #8, human/primate, pelvis/skull, issues. Citations to those claims would verify them.

Grace to you,

Jukia,

You didn't answer the question.

Do you fear people making a positve informed decision for themselves?

As for those sources, someone offered up a Google search for various aspects of those claims, yet you appear to feel that they are," Creationist Rants," and want to exclude them from the discussion at hand.

I don't see you offering anything to the discussion but an attempt to discount evidence that doesn't agree with your worldview.

Will you allow folks to make a decision for themselves or is your view the only acceptable view?

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Jukia,

You didn't answer the question.

Do you fear people making a positve informed decision for themselves?

As for those sources, someone offered up a Google search for various aspects of those claims, yet you appear to feel that they are," Creationist Rants," and want to exclude them from the discussion at hand.

I don't see you offering anything to the discussion but an attempt to discount evidence that doesn't agree with your worldview.

Will you allow folks to make a decision for themselves or is your view the only acceptable view?

Peace,

Dave

I have no issue with people making an informed decision. The google search for Lucy hoaxes provides a number of creationists site. They tend to be quote mines or dishonest. A google search also provides a Talk Origins reference which actually documents efforts to determine whether some of the negative comments made about Lucy are accurate. They appear not to be, yet are repeated and repeated by creationist web sites and apparently believed without any further thought by those who drink that particular type of Kool-Aid.

As far as the question I have not answered---can you ask it again? Thanks.

Jukia,

We then are to gather that Creationist who believe the Word of God are Kool-Aide drinkers and therefore biased and that Talk Origins has at it's heart the sincere search for the Truth?

I'm inclined at this point to remind you that this is a Private Christian Ministry funded by private donations and as such we do have an agenda.

That agenda is the Saving of souls from eternal damnation and it is the agenda of heaven.

I am also inclined to tell you that you are allowed to participate here as much as it lends to you coming to a knowledge of this Truth and not standing in in the way of this Agenda for others.

I will not apologize for either restricting or banning your account when you begin to stand in the way of folks seeking out the Truth. There is no restrictions on asking sincere questions and seeking out the Truth here. There are restrictions on those who are here to pursue their own worldview, or agenda, and to prevent others from an honest seeking of these answers for themselves.

Peace,

Dave