If God's will is to save all His people

[kat8585]

Knowing that man would sin, God decided, according to His own will, to save some out of the race that rebelled.

This is one thing I will never understand. The needless sacrifice of billions to save a few. I know they have a choice, but He knew most would be lost.

[kross]

GOD choosing to save some of them despite their nature to reject HIM is an act of extreme contrition and mercy and love.

Interesting. If you read through Calvin's Institutes, there is no mention of the love of God for the lost.

No man will choose GOD. So GOD must choose to save some.

And so why would God if motivated out of love and mercy, why choose to only save some? If God is all powerful and capable saving all mankind, what would be the advantage in choosing only a select few? How is purposely letting others go to hell a reflection of His love and mercy?

Who cares what Calvin states. IF I saw it in the Bible, that is all that matters to me.

We all were like sheep gone astray. GOD love towards US is clear in HIS choosing of US.

Your question is in the verses you choose to deny the meaning of. Romans 9:18-24 (emphasis on 24 where Paul refers to us as "The ones HE called" indicating the others are not called)

[kross]

Knowing that man would sin, God decided, according to His own will, to save some out of the race that rebelled.

This is one thing I will never understand. The needless sacrifice of billions to save a few. I know they have a choice, but He knew most would be lost.

Hi KAT,

When we look at creation from a humanist point of view, we have to overlook the idea that GOD created everything with a full knowledge that most of those HE created would be damned. HE knew this from the beginning and still designed HIS creation the way HE did.

But GOD does not look at it from our point of view. HE also is not judged by us. GOD created for HIS purposes. HE is also creating the next earth and heavens for HIS purposes. That earth will be the sinless perfect place that we do not understand this place not to be. HE could have chosen to create that place first. HE did not.

As Romans 9 tells us, HE has the right to form one vessel for glory and another for dishonor. HE has the right to make this and us to be and do whatever HE chooses. HE has HIS reasons and purpose.

Just as surely as HE gave us LOve and Mercy, HE also created Satan and cast HIM to earth.

[kat8585]

Hi KAT,

When we look at creation from a humanist point of view, we have to overlook the idea that GOD created everything with a full knowledge that most of those HE created would be damned. HE knew this from the beginning and still designed HIS creation the way HE did.

But GOD does not look at it from our point of view. HE also is not judged by us. GOD created for HIS purposes. HE is also creating the next earth and heavens for HIS purposes. That earth will be the sinless perfect place that we do not understand this place not to be. HE could have chosen to create that place first. HE did not.

As Romans 9 tells us, HE has the right to form one vessel for glory and another for dishonor. HE has the right to make this and us to be and do whatever HE chooses. HE has HIS reasons and purpose.

Just as surely as HE gave us LOve and Mercy, HE also created Satan and cast HIM to earth.

The older I get, the more I realize I will never understand the mind of Christ. It is so much higher than our understanding. So I just have to take it on faith, as my mother used to say, and not let my questionings get in the way of getting to heaven. I'll just have to ask when I get there.

[Guest shiloh357]

Who cares what Calvin states. IF I saw it in the Bible, that is all that matters to me.

Because what you believe is called "Calvinism" and as such, Calvinism is not based on a premise of God's love for saving sinners. Itr also shows in your posts. Your view has nothing to do with God's love for sinners, and in fact, reflects the very antithesis of the Love of God. Predestination, as you present is a really a slander to the nature and character of God. It is a reproach to His stated and demonstrated love for the world.

We all were like sheep gone astray. GOD love towards US is clear in HIS choosing of US.

Nice attempt to twist Scripture. Here is what the Bible REALLY says:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6) The Bible says that we have ALL gone astray. It goes on to say that the Lord has laid upon Jesus the iniquity of us ALL.

It does not say, "the Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of those whom he chose before the foundation of the universe. The use of of the pronouns in Hebrew defy any limitation of "we" or "us" as a select group. Your theology is based on hacking up the Bible, as opposed to sound hermeneutics.

Your question is in the verses you choose to deny the meaning of. Romans 9:18-24 (emphasis on 24 where Paul refers to us as "The ones HE called" indicating the others are not called)

The problem is that Romans 9 is referring to those God chooses for a particular service and purpose on earth. It is not talking about God calling anyone to salvation.

The problem is your root misinterpretation of Romans 9. It is very clear that you are not skilled in hermeneutics and it shows your obvious mishandling of Romans 9.

[kross]

Hi KAT,

When we look at creation from a humanist point of view, we have to overlook the idea that GOD created everything with a full knowledge that most of those HE created would be damned. HE knew this from the beginning and still designed HIS creation the way HE did.

But GOD does not look at it from our point of view. HE also is not judged by us. GOD created for HIS purposes. HE is also creating the next earth and heavens for HIS purposes. That earth will be the sinless perfect place that we do not understand this place not to be. HE could have chosen to create that place first. HE did not.

As Romans 9 tells us, HE has the right to form one vessel for glory and another for dishonor. HE has the right to make this and us to be and do whatever HE chooses. HE has HIS reasons and purpose.

Just as surely as HE gave us LOve and Mercy, HE also created Satan and cast HIM to earth.

The older I get, the more I realize I will never understand the mind of Christ. It is so much higher than our understanding. So I just have to take it on faith, as my mother used to say, and not let my questionings get in the way of getting to heaven. I'll just have to ask when I get there.

Amen to that. Accept what is and know that it is for the best, even if it does not seem like it.

[kross]

Who cares what Calvin states. IF I saw it in the Bible, that is all that matters to me.

Because what you believe is called "Calvinism" and as such, Calvinism is not based on a premise of God's love for saving sinners. Itr also shows in your posts. Your view has nothing to do with God's love for sinners, and in fact, reflects the very antithesis of the Love of God. Predestination, as you present is a really a slander to the nature and character of God. It is a reproach to His stated and demonstrated love for the world.

We all were like sheep gone astray. GOD love towards US is clear in HIS choosing of US.

Nice attempt to twist Scripture. Here is what the Bible REALLY says:

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6) The Bible says that we have ALL gone astray. It goes on to say that the Lord has laid upon Jesus the iniquity of us ALL.

It does not say, "the Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of those whom he chose before the foundation of the universe. The use of of the pronouns in Hebrew defy any limitation of "we" or "us" as a select group. Your theology is based on hacking up the Bible, as opposed to sound hermeneutics.

Your question is in the verses you choose to deny the meaning of. Romans 9:18-24 (emphasis on 24 where Paul refers to us as "The ones HE called" indicating the others are not called)

The problem is that Romans 9 is referring to those God chooses for a particular service and purpose on earth. It is not talking about God calling anyone to salvation.

The problem is your root misinterpretation of Romans 9. It is very clear that you are not skilled in hermeneutics and it shows your obvious mishandling of Romans 9.

I go by what I read in the Bible, I call it Paulism, you call it Calvinism.

I am convinced that what you are teaching is an infusion of humanism founded in the promise "you shall be as GOD". Anyway to wrest the glory from GOD and put it on self. You are welcome to it.

It is clear that you have been taught and have studied in earnest in order to so adeptly work all of the scriptures to mean something that is not clearly obvious. I do not agree with your logic or how you can put those scriptures back into context and make them make sense.

Romans chapter 9 is a perfect example. We see Paul discussing that GOD chooses in Chapter 8 and then we see Paul explaining that GOD has that right, and in verse 24 even refers back to chapter 8 when he used the phrase "even us who HE called".

But, you have convinced yourself of what you believe. I am 100% convinced of what I believe. You reject what I say, I reject what you say. so it will be until I am standing in HIS presence. If I have given HIM to much credit for my salvation, I am sure HE will let me know how much my choosing HIM has brought HIM glory. Until then, I will give HIM all the glory and all the crdit for saving me and keeping me saved.

[Guest shiloh357]

I am convinced that what you are teaching is an infusion of humanism founded in the promise "you shall be as GOD". Anyway to wrest the glory from GOD and put it on self.

Which shows how little you understand humanism.

At any rate, what I have always maintained on this board for the over 5 years that I have been here is that salvation is a work of God from beginning to end. There is no human participation in salvation as far as how salvation is appropriated and maintained. When God moved in the lives of biblical saints, it was at a time in their lives where no human ability was possible, such as when God caused Sarah to conceive, or when Moses and the Children of Israel were at the Red Sea, unable to affect their own escape from Pharoah.

My salvation was not based on any work that I have done at any point. It is completely God's work and not a partnership between me and God. The fact that I believe that God has made salvation available to all of mankind and that man is free to accept or reject the offer does not even come close to qualifying as humanism. That is just an immature attempt to try to find something ugly to say because you cannot really discuss this on an mature, adult level anymore.

It is clear that you have been taught and have studied in earnest in order to so adeptly work all of the scriptures to mean something that is not clearly obvious. I do not agree with your logic or how you can put those scriptures back into context and make them make sense.

Yet, so far, you have not provided one shred of evidence that my responses do not bring the Scriptures back to there proper context. All you can do is make angry, emotional rants. You make plenty of assertions, but you have pretty much left my actual responses unchallenged.

Romans chapter 9 is a perfect example. We see Paul discussing that GOD chooses in Chapter 8 and then we see Paul explaining that GOD has that right, and in verse 24 even refers back to chapter 8 when he used the phrase "even us who HE called".

We don't disagree over the fact that "God chooses." I have never challenged you on that basis in and of itself. What I am challenging is not the fact that God chooses, but what you say that God chooses.

Even in Romans 8, it says that God has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son. He is not talking about predestining anyone to salvation, but rather what he predestined, ultimately for the Christian to become. We are daily being conformed into the image of Christ, but the full and final manifestation of that goal will not occur until we receive our redeemed body. It is what calls "adoption" in Romans 8:23.

But, you have convinced yourself of what you believe. I am 100% convinced of what I believe. You reject what I say, I reject what you say. so it will be until I am standing in HIS presence. If I have given HIM to much credit for my salvation, I am sure HE will let me know how much my choosing HIM has brought HIM glory. Until then, I will give HIM all the glory and all the crdit for saving me and keeping me saved.

The problem is that you have yet to show that my position detracts from His glory. You have also failed to show I ever claimed to "choose Jesus."

[Guest shiloh357]

The problems with the whole concept of salvation being limited to a select few, are as follows:

1. Why should God send prophets or prophesy judgment to a people who cannot repent, and why should God pretend to weep and mourn over those who He has already decided that He will not save and will not allow to come to a place of repentance?

2. Biblical endtimes prophecy becomes irrlevant as God has already decided who will or will not saved. There is no urgency in the light of coming events for anyone to make their salvation sure. No need to get ready for what is coming as no amount of preparation will affect salvation for anyone who has not already been "chosen" anyway.

3. It robs holy living of any real impact in the eyes of the world. If I am one of the chosen, then there is need for me to be concerned about how I represent Christ where I work around those who are not chosen for salvation. There is no fear of being a reproach to Christ in the eyes of the lost as they are already hopelessly lost and even if they admired my walk with Christ, they themselves could not receive Him anyway if they are not one of those "chosen before the foundation of the earth." So, whether I represent Christ well or not, it will make little impact in the workplace or anywhere else if salvation is predetermined. It could also be argued that this view also removes any incentive for holy living. Providing a good Christian example will not will not have any impact for Christ within the context of Predestination as it is being presented in this thread.

4. On an even more personal level, it makes a laughing stock of the Christian who feels led to intercede for the Lost. It is somewhat insulting for God to expect me to pray for the lost if that person is already irretrievably lost and has been left by God to eternal damnation anyway. In fact, there would be really no way to know how to intercede since we, in our limited knowledge do not know if the person is one of the "chosen" or not. If it is all predetermined, there is no reason to pray for the neighbor, relative or coworker who doesn't know Christ. If they are not one of the "chosen," it is a waste of time, If they are one of the "chosen," then why would I spend my time praying for them to have the salvation God has already predetermined for them?

5. No reason to preach or send out missionaries. I have already covered this in a previous post, but if salvation is predetermined, and since we know that God cannot fail, it makes no difference if we send missionaries or not. God has to be true to Himself. He has to save those He has predetermined will be saved whether we preach or not.

6. In predestination, salvation is not the product of God's love, but the product of unconditional election. God is said to have chosen from the before the foundations of the earth, for reasons known only to Himself, certain people to saved, and the remainder of humanity is left to be destroyed in hell. These people, for the duration of time they are on the earth are unable to receive the gospel message. For all intents and purposes, according the tenents of Predestination, they are not, called or drawn or convicted or in any way allowed to respond to gospel even if they hear it. There is no way such a view can in any way be convincingly argued as reflective of God's love, and thus cannot realistically be seen as glorifying God.

[kross]

I am convinced that what you are teaching is an infusion of humanism founded in the promise "you shall be as GOD". Anyway to wrest the glory from GOD and put it on self.

Which shows how little you understand humanism.

At any rate, what I have always maintained on this board for the over 5 years that I have been here is that salvation is a work of God from beginning to end. There is no human participation in salvation as far as how salvation is appropriated and maintained. When God moved in the lives of biblical saints, it was at a time in their lives where no human ability was possible, such as when God caused Sarah to conceive, or when Moses and the Children of Israel were at the Red Sea, unable to affect their own escape from Pharoah.

My salvation was not based on any work that I have done at any point. It is completely God's work and not a partnership between me and God. The fact that I believe that God has made salvation available to all of mankind and that man is free to accept or reject the offer does not even come close to qualifying as humanism. That is just an immature attempt to try to find something ugly to say because you cannot really discuss this on an mature, adult level anymore.

It is clear that you have been taught and have studied in earnest in order to so adeptly work all of the scriptures to mean something that is not clearly obvious. I do not agree with your logic or how you can put those scriptures back into context and make them make sense.

Yet, so far, you have not provided one shred of evidence that my responses do not bring the Scriptures back to there proper context. All you can do is make angry, emotional rants. You make plenty of assertions, but you have pretty much left my actual responses unchallenged.

Romans chapter 9 is a perfect example. We see Paul discussing that GOD chooses in Chapter 8 and then we see Paul explaining that GOD has that right, and in verse 24 even refers back to chapter 8 when he used the phrase "even us who HE called".

We don't disagree over the fact that "God chooses." I have never challenged you on that basis in and of itself. What I am challenging is not the fact that God chooses, but what you say that God chooses.

Even in Romans 8, it says that God has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son. He is not talking about predestining anyone to salvation, but rather what he predestined, ultimately for the Christian to become. We are daily being conformed into the image of Christ, but the full and final manifestation of that goal will not occur until we receive our redeemed body. It is what calls "adoption" in Romans 8:23.

But, you have convinced yourself of what you believe. I am 100% convinced of what I believe. You reject what I say, I reject what you say. so it will be until I am standing in HIS presence. If I have given HIM to much credit for my salvation, I am sure HE will let me know how much my choosing HIM has brought HIM glory. Until then, I will give HIM all the glory and all the crdit for saving me and keeping me saved.

The problem is that you have yet to show that my position detracts from His glory. You have also failed to show I ever claimed to "choose Jesus."

In Romans 8 it also says whom HE predestined, these HE also called. A word used countless times to indicate it is GOD's calling that saves.

There are no emotional rants in anything I have written. But, since you seem to see them, I will stop.