Age old mystery question answered

[godrulz]

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jesus has given you a great gift. Once saved always saved Christians realize the depth of that gift. If you believe that you can lose your salvation you must always be in anguish. How truly sad that sounds. You are missing out on the true joy of the Lord.

Once Christ paid the debt for all your sins he sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit to reside within you. You are sealed. In a way you could look at it like this. You have already done all there is to do to get into heaven, but die.

Even Peter rejected Jesus. Do you think Peter would have gone to hell if after the third denial the mob had stoned him to death? Rhetorical only. Moments before he had defended the Lord with a sword. I doubt that I can convince you if you would believe even this.

For your yoke is hard, and your burden is heavy.

:-(

There is a difference between Peter's momentary lapse under pressure (while retaining a heart toward God) and a persistent, willful denial of Christ to death. Peter restored the relationship and God saw His heart. A momentary lapse does not 'unsave' you or make you hell-bound. God alone can judge the point where a person has permanently turned their back on God. There is always hope until our last breath.

[traveller]

Good post godrulz! Well said brother

[Guest Calamity]

reflections:

In Revelation 3:5, Jesus was writing a letter to the Church of Sardis. In that letter, He said (and this is the Lord Himself speaking):

"He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.".

I John 5

[5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

reflections:

Romans 8:38-39 tells us: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Which is true, but the one thing that was not mentioned is: FREE WILL. You can choose to reject Jesus Christ, even after being saved (not a good idea). The author of Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." So, once you do that, you've "crossed the line," so to speak.

Is our free will not considered in 'things present, nor things to come - nor any other creature'? We were created, right? I think anything/anyone and everything/everyone possible, known and unknown to mankind, was listed in these things. Look at Strong's definitation of 'creature':

from Strong's:

death:

1) the death of the body

1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and

the body by which the life on earth is ended

life:

1) life

1a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate

1b) every living soul

angels:

1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger

from God

principalities:

1) beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing

in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

5a) of angels and demons

powers:1) strength power, ability

1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its

nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth

1b) power for performing miracles

1c) moral power and excellence of soul

things present:

3) close at hand

4) present

things to come:

1) to be about

1a) to be on the point of doing or suffering something

1b) to intend, have in mind, think to

height:

1) thing elevated, height

1a) of space

1b) elevated structure i.e. barrier, rampart, bulwark

depth:

1) depth, height

1a) of "the deep" sea

1b) metaph.

1b1) deep, extreme, poverty

1b2) of the deep things of God

other creature:

1a) the act of creating, creation

1b) creation i.e. thing created

1b1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation

1b1a) anything created

The verse in Hebrews:

According to what you're saying, if somene falls away, then they can never "come back". Is that what you're meaning? That if you lose your salvataion, that there is no hope of it being renewed?

Heb. 6

6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

To me, this is saying that there is no need in being "saved" over and over, because by doing that, they were crucifying Christ all over again, like they used to have to do with the animal sacrifices before Christ, over and over. But He made ONE sacrifice ONCE for all:

Heb. 10:10

10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

10:11 And * every priest standeth daily * ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

sancitfied:

3b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

3c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

one:

1) only one, someone

sacrifice:

1) a sacrifice, victim

for ever:

1) continuously, continuous

And, besides this, the Bible tells us that once we're saved, we are sealed:

2Cor.1

[22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph.1

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph.4

[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I think it's a little presumptious for a mere created human to believe that they have the power to unseal something that their creator, God, has sealed. That's my opinion, anyway.

[2bba]

Calamity

Well said. In fact I don't think I could add anything more to the discussion.

:t:

So I'm off to other topics...

[Adstar]

I am talking about you and what are you talking about? The other one isn't what?

I do not believe in OSAS, neither does Born....

I just had a brain fart...I don't know what I was thinking...I guess it was just the overwhelming pressure of work!!! :sweating:

oh KMB you have made my day :t2:

brain fart :oww: :t2:

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[BobTriez]

Despite Calvinism's TULIP, the above is Scriptural and common sense. Salvation is a love relationship that must be freely entered into and maintained. It is possible to sever the relationship by a willful choice to rebel against God to the end. We have conditional eternal security. If we abide in Him, we will be saved. If we reject Him and return to our old life, we will be lost.

It seems that a lot of folks have a misconception on exactly what a Calvinist believes when it comes to eternal security. I know a lot of dear brothers and sisters who subscribe to Calvin's doctrinal teachings and not one of them feels that they can live their life any way they desire since they can't loose their salvation. In fact, most of them are extremely conservative people. If you are a Christian - a follower of Christ, you are saved. Period. What I do not like to see, however, are spiritually young Christians being told that they can somehow mess up and loose their salvation. Doesn't that imply salvation by works or at least partially by works ? If you are a mature Christian, put yourself in their place for a moment....how would you feel ?

I don't think Jesus wants nor ever intends for us to live in a constant state of fear. Now regardless of whether it's fear or not, it's all about perspective. I know - 100 % that I am saved. I know that there is nothing I can do or neglect to do that will ever take this gift away from me...that's where I'm at in my walk; but not everyone is that confident....why ? Because there are people saying "watch out - you can loose your salvation." - or they are implying that they can...again, it's all about perspective.

I personally believe that you can't loose your salvation...it's a free gift and God isn't going to take that away.....however, let's say you could for purposes of argument. Wouldn't it be better, if you must teach this doctrine, to teach that the only way you can loose it is if you choose to reject and give back the gift ? Being a conscious act and knowing full well the repercussions of your decision instead of some ambiguous doctrine that leaves people drained, fearful & a "walking on eggshells" type of feeling ?

I know that not everyone who does not believe in OSAS teaches what I just wrote of, but sadly either many do, or they don't bother to explain why they don't believe it, rather it's left open ended to be determined by the baby believer who in many circumstances sees it as a "no hope" doctrine.

Personally, I see no benefit from even discussing this topic. If you are a Christian, you are saved...period....why throw a bunch of "what ifs" into your spiritual life that have no relevance to anything anyway ? And why put a stumbling block in front of a fellow believer ? It is nonproductive and unnecessary and if you belong to Jesus, it's not even relevant to your relationship.

I'm sure some may disagree with me, and you are free to do so....but I'm not going to debate an issue that shouldn't even be an issue at all. I've had this discussion in the past and it truly get's you nowhere in your walk with God....and I don't want to be responsible for causing an already struggling brother or sister to have even more doubt about something they can't earn...that's not right IMHO.

In His service,

Bob

[Guest ReflectionsofHim]

Overall, what brings this all to thought for me is my brother, Gary. If you've read my prayer request for him in the prayer request forum then you will know why I feel that he has indeed lost his salvation. He has rebuked and renounced God and told Him he made a mistake and that Jesus is only a prophet, not the Messiah...my brother's words!!! I personally feel that OSAS for the most part, but in the situation where one has blasphemed the Holy Spirit in the regard as my brother has? Well, we serve a jealous God and I just don't personally feel He is keeping my brother's name in the book of life. He has said in Revelations that He can and does erase names from it and as far as my brother is concerned? The day he told God what he did? He told Him to take his name out. That is where I stand on that. I feel my brother is definitely going to spend eternity in hell. He has spent more than 30 years serving a false god! And loves it and believes it!!! If my brother makes it to Heaven then that sure makes me wonder about that "narrow way and path"!!! Then most everyone is going to be there! And God's Word says that isn't so. At any rate my brother's choices has left me to do a lot of thinking and praying and searching about this. When I had sat down and done some serious "O.K., Dad, I really need an answer about my brother's salvation here" that Scripture dropped out of the blue on me and almost immediately!!! I really know in my spirit that God was giving me my answer about my brother and that is that his name has been "erased from the book of life".

Thanks for listening and understanding and love to all through our Jesus,

Ref

:hug:

[godrulz]

Bob: We do need to emphasize the security of the believer. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. We should live a godly life and make our salvation secure. This does not preclude the possibility of a believer becoming an unbeliever again through apostasy or overt rebellion. Unbelievers, by definition, are not secure in Christ.

One of the root issues is a misunderstanding of salvation. It is not a literal 'thing' like a gift box that gets glued to us. Using that analogy, it is possible to refuse the gift or give it back or destroy it at a later date. The essence of salvation is a moral choice and love relationship. It is possible to exercise a choice against God (or God violates His moral law and coerces robots, negating free will love relationships) or return to hating God in enmity. Many genuine believers have fallen away over the centuries (no fault of God's...He is the perfect parent, yet Israel became like a prostitute).

The grounds (reason for which) of salvation are grace and the death/resurrection of Christ.

The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentance, faith, continuance in the faith (see other set of verses that talk about the conditionality of salvation, in addition to the ones about the security of a present-tense believer). Conditions are not works. We are not saved by works. Reconciliation involves 2 parties and is not passive or unilateral (God foists Himself on us). The conditions of salvation reflect the wisdom of the Moral Governor of the universe. He is able to extend mercy and grace by providing an atonement, satisfying the penalty of the Law. One of the needs is that sinners will become saints. Faith,love, and obedience are not 'works', but flow out of moral relationships with God. Conditions are satisfied and God is just, holy, and merciful. We are saved by grace/faith, not works. The commands to repent, trust, and abide are not works, but a prerequisite to enter a relationship with God. It is not man's effort. God provides and initiates, yet we respond to His wooing (not coercion).

[Guest Rootabagga]

I was raised in the church and lived in a very strict family. Many biblical values were impressed in my siblings and I at a very young age. Even though all of this was going on around me, I thought for myself (meaning not in a demoninational view). I agreed with much of how I was raised but I also agree and believe in things unspoken with in the church. One of the views I struggled with was the understanding regarding eternal salvation. I was raised being taught that once you were saved that the only way to loose your salvation was if you commited the unpardonable sin (blasphimy of the Holy Spirit). In the same instance, if you are TRUELY saved, you would have no desire to commit that sin, so in a sense you have eternal salvation. Confusing?? yea well I would run this all around my mind until I was dizzy and still didn't have an answer. This past Sunday we acually got on this very subject and the Sunday school teacher said it in such a way that it was all made clear to me. When you become truely saved, the life changing desition is made in your heart, not your head. When you just think and say "hey that sounds cool, I want to be saved from hell" but then never change your life, that is doing it in your head. So lets just call it "head salvation" and "heart salvation" just to be able to keep it straight, . Head salvation does NOT garentee eternal salvation. Heart salvation DOES. If you would like scriptural back up I will get it, the book I wrote the scriptures down in, my neighbor has. Kate

[Guest ReflectionsofHim]

I was raised in the church and lived in a very strict family. Many biblical values were impressed in my siblings and I at a very young age. Even though all of this was going on around me, I thought for myself (meaning not in a demoninational view). I agreed with much of how I was raised but I also agree and believe in things unspoken with in the church. One of the views I struggled with was the understanding regarding eternal salvation. I was raised being taught that once you were saved that the only way to loose your salvation was if you commited the unpardonable sin (blasphimy of the Holy Spirit). In the same instance, if you are TRUELY saved, you would have no desire to commit that sin, so in a sense you have eternal salvation. Confusing?? yea well I would run this all around my mind until I was dizzy and still didn't have an answer. This past Sunday we acually got on this very subject and the Sunday school teacher said it in such a way that it was all made clear to me. When you become truely saved, the life changing desition is made in your heart, not your head. When you just think and say "hey that sounds cool, I want to be saved from hell" but then never change your life, that is doing it in your head. So lets just call it "head salvation" and "heart salvation" just to be able to keep it straight,    . Head salvation does NOT garentee eternal salvation. Heart salvation DOES.  If you would like scriptural back up I will get it, the book I wrote the scriptures down in, my neighbor has.                                            Kate

This is very good! Thank you! I know that I have "heart salvation"!!! For I am truly bowled over in love with Jesus! I'm one of His biggest fans and groupies, hehe! But seriously, I enjoyed reading this and thank you so much for sharing! I saw you in chat yesterday but we didn't get a chance to really chat before you had to leave. At any rate, I think this is very good and I know many that have each type of salvation. It is when it reigns true in our hearts that we certainly get the full benefit of that intimate relationship with Jesus. I suppose unless my brother comes back to the Lord I will never really know until it is time whether he is truly going to maintain his salvation. I really do feel he has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. He has said some very blasphemous things about his prior choice to serve God. What is sad is that he was so in love with Jesus and was so on fire to be a minister. The cults out there are very persuasive. In his case the enemy used a woman to lure him in. This is all so sad for me and it makes me cry everytime I think of all of this. I love my brother and we were very close growing up. I'd appreciate it if you'd pray for him as you think of him...his name is Gary. He is now a Jehovah's Witness and has been for more than 30 years now. He renounced and rebuked Jesus publicly saying he'd made a mistake about Jesus being the Savior and that He was only a prophet. I can't help but wonder what God's reaction to this is. This is very, very serious business and it is because of this that I no longer believe in OSAS. Having really gone into a serious praying and fasting for an answer from God about my brother's salvation, He led me very unexpectedly to this Scripture in Revelations. It is quite literal in meaning that if He won't erase a name from the Book of Life for obedience to Him that this means He indeed DOES erase names from the Book of Life. This is as clear and literal as God's Word gets in my opinion and it is dangerous to deny it especially when it is HIM speaking! For the most part I do believe in OSAS, but in cases like this? I think it is dangerous to think that God won't erase one's name from the Book of Life when they completely, totally, rebuke Him, deny His Son, and turn on him....especially publically!!! To me this is the ultimate form of blasphemy because my brother once knew Jesus and THEN renounced Him. Very dangerous stuff. As for me? I love Jesus with all my heart and know that my sins are forgiven today and always. I have no desire or intention to leave His side. I serve Him with "heart salvation". Thank you!!!

Love to you through our Jesus!

Ref

:hug:

Edited June 10, 2004 by ReflectionsofHim