The Law: pt#2

[kross]

However, life on this orb, in this body, is better if lived in the law.

Dear Kross,

Torah is the Law or the Law and the Prophets. Torah is THE Key to Happiness. There is death and curses in the Law, if one is disobedient and we all are. There is also mercy and grace in the Law (THANK YOU G-D!). The two previous statements are either both true or what Yeshua did on the cross is irrelevant and he ain't nutin.

You sure confused me. I am certain my righteousness is in JESUS. I am certain I do not live under the law of sin and death, I live in the law of grace.

I am cetain that JESUS is the fulfillment of the law. I am certain that life lived with a heart for GOD and HIS precepts is better than life lived outside of them. I am certain I will not be judged by the law, I will be found perfected in the shed blood of JESUS.

This, I am cetain of.

[kross]

Once And For All Time

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord,

I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews 10:11-17

If You Could But Call

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

And Believe

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart:

for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

The Avrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant are really one in the same covenant only the application of the covenant has changed. It is just that the church as a whole has gotten the interpretation of this wrong since 325 a.c.e. Before this date, all the beleivers in Asia Minor as they are still to this day are Torah Observant. Look to the Noahide Treaty with Israel a few years back from the Noahides in Asia Minor. This Treaty of sorts was done in Lebanon of all places. In 325 a.c.e., the religious and civil court decreed under the Nicean Creed that all Jews and gentiles that were Torah Observant were committing illegal behavior, therefore, the church still believes to this day that all Torah Observant peoples of all cultures are criminals. The Nicean Creed has been modified over the years, but this section has never been appealed. I think that it is reasonable to assume that most beleivers today have no clue that this is part and parcel of their belief system. Even many Christian Theologians do not realize this. Emperer Constatine stated very clearly that the Nicean Council were speaking of and were correct that Jews are evil people. I do not think that you would find many Christian Theologians today that would agree with the Emperer, but I find it strange that this is the the church's own doctrine and the church leaders expect Jews to trust them. It is a simple fix, but no church leader has yet to address the issue, yet.

Just for the record, no church I have ever been in considers Torah observant Christians law breakers or bad people. I think you have been mislead in what Christians believe.

Though, there are many who feel that the Jews killed their messiah and frofieted their claim to the promises of GOD. This is not true. The promise to HIS chosen people is irrevokeable. It will stand as long as GOD exists.

As I was re-reading your post I think I noticed something, you are lumping all Christians in with the decrees of the Roman Catholic Church. The very reason there are Protestant churches is because we disagree with (protest) these teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Mot of what this church teaches has been rejected by the Christian community.

In other words, what you state is part of the doctrines and decrees of Christian churches is not a part of anyones doctrines except the church of Rome.

[Guest Yacov]

Once And For All Time

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord,

I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews 10:11-17

If You Could But Call

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

And Believe

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart:

for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

The Avrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant are really one in the same covenant only the application of the covenant has changed. It is just that the church as a whole has gotten the interpretation of this wrong since 325 a.c.e. Before this date, all the beleivers in Asia Minor as they are still to this day are Torah Observant. Look to the Noahide Treaty with Israel a few years back from the Noahides in Asia Minor. This Treaty of sorts was done in Lebanon of all places. In 325 a.c.e., the religious and civil court decreed under the Nicean Creed that all Jews and gentiles that were Torah Observant were committing illegal behavior, therefore, the church still believes to this day that all Torah Observant peoples of all cultures are criminals. The Nicean Creed has been modified over the years, but this section has never been appealed. I think that it is reasonable to assume that most beleivers today have no clue that this is part and parcel of their belief system. Even many Christian Theologians do not realize this. Emperer Constatine stated very clearly that the Nicean Council were speaking of and were correct that Jews are evil people. I do not think that you would find many Christian Theologians today that would agree with the Emperer, but I find it strange that this is the the church's own doctrine and the church leaders expect Jews to trust them. It is a simple fix, but no church leader has yet to address the issue, yet.

Just for the record, no church I have ever been in considers Torah observant Christians law breakers or bad people. I think you have been mislead in what Christians believe.

Though, there are many who feel that the Jews killed their messiah and frofieted their claim to the promises of GOD. This is not true. The promise to HIS chosen people is irrevokeable. It will stand as long as GOD exists.

As I was re-reading your post I think I noticed something, you are lumping all Christians in with the decrees of the Roman Catholic Church. The very reason there are Protestant churches is because we disagree with (protest) these teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Mot of what this church teaches has been rejected by the Christian community.

In other words, what you state is part of the doctrines and decrees of Christian churches is not a part of anyones doctrines except the church of Rome.

Kross, you make some valid points. However, the Nicean Creed/Edict still stands. This was done in 325 a.c.e. If I came across that I meant all christians, I certainly do apologize. That could not be farther from the truth and even I know better. The Evangelical Christians are a much different breed of Christian. They are the only ones that a Jew would dare trust.

It is in the church beliefs and doctrine that are at fault part of what caused the Holocaust, not individual christians.

I know plenty of Christian Pastors who do agree that the church as a whole need to modify that decree as a matter of Integrity and Truth. They are just simply at odds on how to proceed since there are many churches today whereas there was one Predominate one years ago. What non-theologians do not know is what is behind their beliefs and doctrines even many well meaning and well educated Pastors do not either. It is assumed that they church fathers never had faults.

Are you aware that Martin Luther himself was a Primary Cause for the Holocaust? G-d took his life for one of Martin Luther's Teachings. He sent a letter to all the leaders of Europe at the time, that if they could nto afford to boot all the Jews out of their countries, Martin Luther instructed the leaders to line up all the Jews outside the synagogues, have them march in the synagogues, lock the synagogues, and torch the synagogues. That was Martin Luther. Please see Pastor John Hagee's book Jerusalem Countdown pages 113-114. Yet, most Protestant Pastors are unaware of this major Historical fact.

It is apart of the Protestant and Catholic Church Doctrine's because it is in th Nicean Creed. However, I would agree that it is not apart of ALL the Protestant denominations. If you are apart of the Denominations that beleive in the Nicean Creed then that is apart of your denominational beliefs even it is not apart of the individual beliefs. The issue here is not with the individual christians, it is with the core doctrinal beliefs of the Theologians. Most Christian Theologians are not aware of the fact there there is a need to change because they have not been taught correctly and have never read the church and court transcripts of the Nicean Council in 325 a.c.e.

This is a minor modication that needs to happen, but can have an extremely major positive and profound effect. I have a BA in Rabbinical Theology, I do not state the aformentioned to condemn, but only to inform. These are things that happened long before any of us came onto the scene. Changes like this will have a profound effect on Judeo/Christian relations without actually changing anyone's beliefs. It is obvious to me that you would agree that a minor modification is in order because you yourself are not an anti-semite. It is the underlying anti-semitic doctrines that most people are unaware of that I am opposed to, not to christians and certainly not to christianity.

[Guest Yacov]

I will stand in the perfect righteousness of JESUS CHRIST. however the law judges that.

Let's see...now that I'm a Christian, I have to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses....why does that sound so familiar?

Christians are no longer subject to the law or what is commonly called the law of Moses:

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing" - Galatians 2:21

The law has been superseded by Jesus' sacrifice -

"For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" - Romans 10:4

"For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law" - Romans 3:28

"Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith" - Galatians 3:23-26

It does no good for a Christian to adopt Jewish practices and lifestyles, seeking to obtain righteousness by keeping the law of Moses:

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing." - Galatians 2:21

"You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" - Galatians 5:4

Rufus, do you subscribe to marcionism? I am not stating that you do, but your statements are very near his. Who said anything about Jewish practices and lifestyles? Not I! Your statement makes it clear that Rabbi Paul only feigned belief in all the Law and the Prophets which makes him and all the disciples all liars. That statement also makes Rabbi Yeshua ben David a liar even though that is not what you were thinking when you made the statement nor would I expect you to state that. Listen to the following words in Hebrews and your understanding will be mroe complete.

For Hebrews 10:28-31 states, "Someone who disregards the Torah of Moses is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. THin how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of G-d; who has treated as something common the blood of the coveneant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of G-d's grace! For the One we know is the One who said, Vengeance is my responsibility; I will repay, and then said, Adonai will judge his people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living G-d!

Do you desire to be thumped by the living G-d.?! Do you desire to be put away and be put to death? I do not think so, bro! And neither do I!

Somone follows the Laws of Moses that G-d wrote with His own finger because that person loves G-d and wants to be counted as one of His Children. Bro, you do that already! Or those who really believe the statement you made do not have the Holy Spirit living inside of them.

In the book of Acts, Cornelious would have been considered a righteous man not because he was a beleiver in Yeshua, but before that. He would have been considered righteous because he obeyed the Word of Adonai as any gentile would have in that day. What Cornelious practiced was the 303 Noahide Moral Laws or Principles. Are you stating that you are not a good and moral person? Surely not as a beleiver in Yeshua! Cornelious would also have practiced the Feasts of the L-rd as the appointed times decreed by G-d Himself. There is, however, some debate among Theologians whether or not he also Practiced the Feasts of the Jews which is a different Feast since those were not decreed by G-d but by man. Yeshua practiced the Feast of the Jews for sure. There is no doubt about that.

[Guest man]

Mark 12

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

[Guest Yacov]

I will stand in the perfect righteousness of JESUS CHRIST. however the law judges that.

Let's see...now that I'm a Christian, I have to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses....why does that sound so familiar?

Christians are no longer subject to the law or what is commonly called the law of Moses:

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing" - Galatians 2:21

The law has been superseded by Jesus' sacrifice -

"For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" - Romans 10:4

"For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law" - Romans 3:28

"Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith" - Galatians 3:23-26

It does no good for a Christian to adopt Jewish practices and lifestyles, seeking to obtain righteousness by keeping the law of Moses:

"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing." - Galatians 2:21

"You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" - Galatians 5:4

Rufus, do you subscribe to marcionism? I am not stating that you do, but your statements are very near his. Who said anything about Jewish practices and lifestyles? Not I! Your statement makes it clear that Rabbi Paul only feigned belief in all the Law and the Prophets which makes him and all the disciples all liars. That statement also makes Rabbi Yeshua ben David a liar even though that is not what you were thinking when you made the statement nor would I expect you to state that. Listen to the following words in Hebrews and your understanding will be mroe complete.

For Hebrews 10:28-31 states, "Someone who disregards the Torah of Moses is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. THin how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of G-d; who has treated as something common the blood of the coveneant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of G-d's grace! For the One we know is the One who said, Vengeance is my responsibility; I will repay, and then said, Adonai will judge his people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living G-d!

Do you desire to be thumped by the living G-d.?! Do you desire to be put away and be put to death? I do not think so, bro! And neither do I!

Somone follows the Laws of Moses that G-d wrote with His own finger because that person loves G-d and wants to be counted as one of His Children. Bro, you do that already! Or those who really believe the statement you made do not have the Holy Spirit living inside of them.

In the book of Acts, Cornelious would have been considered a righteous man not because he was a beleiver in Yeshua, but before that. He would have been considered righteous because he obeyed the Word of Adonai as any gentile would have in that day. What Cornelious practiced was the 303 Noahide Moral Laws or Principles. Are you stating that you are not a good and moral person? Surely not as a beleiver in Yeshua! Cornelious would also have practiced the Feasts of the L-rd as the appointed times decreed by G-d Himself. There is, however, some debate among Theologians whether or not he also Practiced the Feasts of the Jews which is a different Feast since those were not decreed by G-d but by man. Yeshua practiced the Feast of the Jews for sure. There is no doubt about that.

So what? Torah and Talmud are not binding on Christians, nor are Christians obligated to follow the letter of the law of Moses. What you are proposing is the Galatian heresy. I respect those who try to follow the letter of the law but the fact remains that the law does not save nor does it impart righteousness. By default, those who do try to follow the letter of the law reject Jesus.

I am a Christian from a Gentile background. I have never been a Jew. I am not and never have been obligated to follow the law of Moses. Why would I want to decline the free gift that God has given me in order to attempt the impossible, that is, keep and follow the law of Moses with the goal of obtaining righteousness through my own effort? Kinda stupid, don'tcha think?

If Torah and Talmud are not binding on Christians then do not abide by the Sermon on the mount for Yeshua quoted from both of those. If you are stating the gentiles do not have to keep the Law as a Jew would, of course not. However, if you violate the Law there are consequences in your daily life. There are blessings to be obedient and curses when you are not.

When someone speaks against the Law they speak curses into their lives. Yeshua stated in Matthew to adhere to all the precepts and the Law as the Rabbi's teach. The Rabbi's never taught that a gentile, in order to be righteous, had to keep the law like a Jew would. That would violate Torah, mandates, rules and regulations.

Those who are obedient to the Law is obedient to Yeshua for He is The Law since He fulfilled them and He Himself wrote them and gave them to Moses.

Those people who beleive that they are not obligated to follow the 303 Noahide Moral Laws that are in the Law of Moses, do do not have the Holy Spirit inside of them.

Only a follower of Emperer Constatine would state that the goal of obtaining righteousness by following the Law of Moses is obtained through my own effort. That statement shows that one needs to study the Law before making wild statements that he or she knows nothing about. The Key to Happiness if found in the Torah or the Laws of Moses. That statement is ludicrous to begin with. The first person to make that statement and make it popular was Constatine and he was not a Christian, but was an anti-semite. Constatine also murdered his mother and his sons. That I think we can both agree that no christian should do.

You can beleive what you like, but ALL of us will have to present our lives before G-d and Yeshua. I would not want you to state that I disregarded your word for my own before THE CHIEF JUSTICE!

Also, since you do not beleive that you have to be obedient to the Law of Moses that Yeshua made perfect in His own deeds then you must be obedient to the 1150 NEW COMMANDS in the New Testament. I grew up in the US Army. Anything above the number 4 is higher Math. You can either be obedient to the 613 in spiritual terms and 303 moral laws or 1150 New Commands. It seems to me that it would be easier to be obedient to the 303 moral laws to be a moral person and as a beleiver in Yeshua, the 613 rather than 1150. 1150 are incorporated in the 613, if one includes the Talmud which Yeshua quoted from in the Sermon on the mount.

FYI - If someone really and truly beleives that they do not have to live by the "Laws of Moses" then they would also have to take out the 10 Words or Ten Commandments. The 613 are apart of the 10 and cannot be seperated. Would you go into ANY Court of Law and tell the judge that you do not need to respect him or her as a lessor Elohim? I think that it is reasonable to assume that the Law would be thrown at that person, yet that is one of the moral laws that you keep stating that you do not have to follow. How about adultery? Murder? Incest? Stealing? These are just a few that you keep stating that you do not have to keep as a gentile and be a follower of Jesus.

[Guest man]

Mark 12

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

[Guest Yacov]

Mark 12

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

AMEN! "My people perish due to lack of knowlege and vision, says Adonai!" Shema is the first and great commandment! When Constatine first stated "We do not need to live the Law like the Jew", this statement violated the Shema. He poked G-d in the eye. Therefore, it is impossible to be obedient to the second as you mentioned. Constatine was attempting to poke the Jews, but in doing so, he was poking the apple of G-d's Eye thereby violating love thy neighbor as thyself.

Usually, when anyone violates one, that person violates many as Yeshua stated.

[Guest Yacov]

Mark 12

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

AMEN! "My people perish due to lack of knowlege and vision, says Adonai!" Shema is the first and great commandment! When Constatine first stated "We do not need to live the Law like the Jew", this statement violated the Shema. He poked G-d in the eye. Therefore, it is impossible to be obedient to the second as you mentioned. Constatine was attempting to poke the Jews, but in doing so, he was poking the apple of G-d's Eye thereby violating love thy neighbor as thyself.

Usually, when anyone violates one, that person violates many as Yeshua stated.

It sounds to me like you have set yourself up for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment in trying to keep the law. You must keep all of it, not just the parts you like. It is impossible to do so. But, you are well within your right to make the attempt. When you get done breaking yourself against the law, come on back and we'll talk some more.

Brother, I do the Law because G-d Commanded it. He is the One with weight one the scales not mine and not yours.

If you have not taken a course on the Law which I do not think that you have may I suggest taking a course online that is taught by Dr. Tippie. He is a gentile Theologian. Try going to http://www.maretsoftware.com/torahtips/ and check with Bob who owns the sight. He is affiliated with Central Christian University in North Carolina, USA. He is a very learned man. He is not Jewish so please do not be as taken by surprise as I was when I found out that he was a gentile.

Doing the Law as you state, is about doing what is RIGHT in G-d's Eyes, not mine. How can I ever break myself against the Law when I love the Law and I love the One Who Gave It? So by your statements, are you one of those christians who believe that Jesus is the Son of G-d, but can behave in any manner you choose to? There are many examples such as Rev. Wright, MR. BO, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, and the like kind of christians. I do not know you, but for the life of me I cannot seem to understand your point of view.

For you to make the statement "It sounds to me like you have set yourself up for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment in trying to keep the law", it is very obvious that you do not understand what the Law is all about. I promise you the Law is not what you "think" it might be. It is not about "earning" righteousness and salvation. It is about being obedient to G-d and knowning G-d's Ways. You complain about that which you have NO understanding of.

[Guest Yacov]

Mark 12

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

AMEN! "My people perish due to lack of knowlege and vision, says Adonai!" Shema is the first and great commandment! When Constatine first stated "We do not need to live the Law like the Jew", this statement violated the Shema. He poked G-d in the eye. Therefore, it is impossible to be obedient to the second as you mentioned. Constatine was attempting to poke the Jews, but in doing so, he was poking the apple of G-d's Eye thereby violating love thy neighbor as thyself.

Usually, when anyone violates one, that person violates many as Yeshua stated.

It sounds to me like you have set yourself up for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment in trying to keep the law. You must keep all of it, not just the parts you like. It is impossible to do so. But, you are well within your right to make the attempt. When you get done breaking yourself against the law, come on back and we'll talk some more.

Brother, I do the Law because G-d Commanded it. He is the One with weight one the scales not mine and not yours.

If you have not taken a course on the Law which I do not think that you have may I suggest taking a course online that is taught by Dr. Tippie. He is a gentile Theologian. Try going to http://www.maretsoftware.com/torahtips/ and check with Bob who owns the sight. He is affiliated with Central Christian University in North Carolina, USA. He is a very learned man. He is not Jewish so please do not be as taken by surprise as I was when I found out that he was a gentile.

Doing the Law as you state, is about doing what is RIGHT in G-d's Eyes, not mine. How can I ever break myself against the Law when I love the Law and I love the One Who Gave It? So by your statements, are you one of those christians who believe that Jesus is the Son of G-d, but can behave in any manner you choose to? There are many examples such as Rev. Wright, MR. BO, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, and the like kind of christians. I do not know you, but for the life of me I cannot seem to understand your point of view.

For you to make the statement "It sounds to me like you have set yourself up for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment in trying to keep the law", it is very obvious that you do not understand what the Law is all about. I promise you the Law is not what you "think" it might be. It is not about "earning" righteousness and salvation. It is about being obedient to G-d and knowning G-d's Ways. You complain about that which you have NO understanding of.

I stand by my statement.

You can make your stand wherever you choose. I personally would not want to be in a position where I was putting my middle finger up to THE Good Family Court Judge. Judges have a tendency of not allowing Idolatry in their court rooms regardless of how the courtrooms today call it. This is NOT the BEMA of Yeshua where we will ALL make our stand individually.

However, as a fellow American, I would like to point out to you that ALL the founding fathers were very much aware of the Tractates (the Laws of Moses as you state). Chief Justice John Jay and the vast majority of his sons and nephews used the Tractates daily in their Professional Lives. It is amazing that most Americans today either are unaware of that historical fact or choose to ignore it.