The real birth of Jesus

[Hunterpoet]

I will ask these questions:

Why do you decorate the tree?

because it is fun and it looks pretty and because it is a tradition

What do these decorations represent?

Nothing at all. Some are pretty, some are funny some are gifts from other people. They represent nothing more than the other decorations I have in my house year round. what do the tea pots from Japan that my wife collected represent?

Where do you place the presents?

in the closet till Christmas day.

Why place them at the foot of the tree?

Tradition.

Are there any scriptures that tell us to do these things?

nope, but then again there are no scriptures that tell me to run marathons. There are no scriptures that tell me to be a Marine. There are no scriptures that tell me to play Uno with my kids. There are no scriptures that tell me to come on the internet and discuss things with people.

How less sincere would your worship and celebration be without a tree?

None at all. How much more sincere would my worship and celebration be without the tree, none at all. The tree has no effect on my worship at all, it is not part of my worship.

In my heart I know that the Lord does not want to be represented by anything other than His people. He does not want to be seen in a bulb, a tree, or anything like this. He wants the world to see Him in His people.

the tree, bulb or whatever does not represent God to me, or anyone else that has spoken about his on here. He is seen in me, when people come to visit and they see the tree they ask questions and I tell them about my faith and why we do what we do.

He wants us to be different, His kind of different, and we are to do so in such a manner as to cause others to have want of it. A decorated tree will do little if anything to accomplish this.

by this line of logic, why stop at the tree? why do you have a computer? people in the "world" have computers. you should get rid of yours to be different. How about your car, all those pagans drive cars, why not get rid of yours and be different.

You used the word " tradition " twice. Tradition...1) the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends and customs, information.

2) A long established or inherited way of thinking or acting.

3) a continuing patter of culture beliefs or practices.

Theology:

Among Christians, a body of teachings or any one of them, held to have been delivered by Christ and His apostles.

I hope you can see that " traditions " have their roots in a belief system and that these traditional practices are then rooted in a belief and mean something.

My computer and car or truck are things that I use to function in this world, much the same as the tools you use, like say your map or radio, which are not used in conjunction to celebrate the birth of Christ.

And the issue of the tree only occurs when people want to celebrate the birth of Christ. How does this practice glorify Our Lord? If it means nothing as you say...why do it upon the celebration of His birth?

And because you have children I will ask, does santa put the gifts under the tree or does Jesus?

Again I will say that embracing a practice not condemned by scripture and appearing innocent or haveing no meaning is a loophole the advosary relishes and is a tool he uses to confuse and confound not only those who already believe, but those who have yet to meet Our Lord.

How clearly will a nonbeliver be able to see Christs teachings in you as you go about practicing and behaving the same way they do? How easy will it be for them to see descrepencies in your witness when you embrace the things of the world that they hold so dear, not just at this time of the year, but all of the year. Can the people around you see that you belong to the Lord, or do you have to tell them?

I pray you G-ds counsel.

Grace and Peace be with you always.

[Hunterpoet]

Because this discussion is all about the christmas tree, I think it important to ad this information.

It concerns a christmas song, specifically " The Wassail Song".

Now I haevn't heard this song for some time, but do remember singing it as a young person, although I don't remember singing it in church.

The opening lyrics are...."here we come a wassailing among the leaves so green"....

So what is wassailing... " a salutation in drinking to someones ( or in this cause somethings) health, expression of goodwill at a festivity. The drink is commonly ale or wine spiced with roasted apples and sugar.

This is an old pagan ritual which is dated back to the 12th century and presumed to go back even further.

If you visit www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com, you can find an interesting read with reference to what Rev. Ian Bradley has written about this song and the origin of it's meaning.

The research that I did some years ago showed me that this wassailing was done to ward off evil spirits from the trees in the orchard, they would then toaast the tree or threaten it and give it cake...basically...tree worship.

Now they do mention G-d in the song, but I wonder what god they are referring to.

How does this fit in with the christmas tree, well, I think this song and it's origins, which are english, but also probably german( oh christmas tree) and european, demonstrate how this pagan ritual of toasting or worshiping trees was easily transferred to the celebration of the christmas, and if fact where the idea of having a tree during christmas came from.

All christians know, or should know, that the advosary will do anything to distract someone from hearing G-ds words and specifically about He Who is the Christ, Our Lord Jesus. I'm not aware of any verse in the bible that commands or suggests that erecting a tree in anyway way glorifies G-d or Our Lord and Savior. Quite the contrary, are we not suppose to be examples of how one can live in the world, but not be of this world.

I hear folks on these boards all year long chastizing and condeming things the Roman Catholic church and other denominations have incorperated into the church and worship of Our Lord, and yet once a year so passionately defend a tradition that is not supported by scripture and clearly has its roots in paganism.

Compromise, the early church compromised, the churches that came after did likewise, and what I see today are individuals coming together and compromising and justifying things which have no Christian or biblical basis whatsoever.

And to say that the bible doesn't condemn something to justify it's practice is a loophole that the advosary relishes.

I will ask these questions:

Why do you decorate the tree?

What do these decorations represent?

Where do you place the presents?

Why place them at the foot of the tree?

Are there any scriptures that tell us to do these things?

How less sincere would your worship and celebration be without a tree?

In my heart I know that the Lord does not want to be represented by anything other than His people. He does not want to be seen in a bulb, a tree, or anything like this. He wants the world to see Him in His people. He wants us to be different, His kind of different, and we are to do so in such a manner as to cause others to have want of it. A decorated tree will do little if anything to accomplish this.

I pray you all G-ds counsel on this matter.

Grace and Peace be with you always.

Way too serious.

First of all, you would have to demonstrate that anything you mentioned above, songs, gifts, the tree, etc. detract from Christ or divert worship from Him, by the Christians doing these things, and you cannot. You cannot show worship of any of these things, and you cannot show it siphoning worship away from Jesus. No Christian worships their tree or uses it as an icon to worship instead of Christ. The comparisions are ludicrous.

Second of all, no one is "defending" the tradition, at least not in the way you wish to define it. I don't see people saying "We are going to celebrate Christmas no matter what!" I'm not defending Christmas, I am stating flat out that you, and Massorite's, and a couple of other's people's take on how pagan and evil the holiday is is wrong. It's legalism, plain and simple, when holidays and celebration of them or not celebrating them are a matter of personal conviction. If you don't like Christmas, don't celebrate it, it makes no difference to me one way or another, but don't tell me I can't, because your reasoning as to why I can't is 100% wrong, and it's not a choice you should be making for me or attempting to impose on me. I'm not arguing for Christmas, I'm arguing against your flawed logic, and I would argue against flawed logic no matter what the subject was.

Wassail is just a word to me. I don't hear the song and go running out into a stand of conifers drinking vodka and singing to ward off the evil spirits. And neither does anyone else, they are just words in a song and just as harmless. These arguments about words to songs and the tree and everything else you wish to brand "pagan" is all bah humbug stuff.

First, several folks have on these boards defended the use of a christmas tree at christmas not only this year, but last year as well.

Second, I never said that the DAY is wrong, I merely made a thought provoking suggestion in an earlier post.

My position on the use of a tree stands, you think it ridiculous or ludicrous...ok, thats what you think. I've stated how I think the tree stuff got started and what it means.....now would you be so kind as to tell me how you think this harmless tree glorifies G-d, during the time of celebration of His Sons birth.

Also, I want an apology from you for putting your words in my statement. I never once said you couldn't do anything. I stated an opinion based on my understanding, conviction and belief...AT NO TIME did I say you or anyone else had to conform to my understanding , conviction or beliefs.

You state the use of logic....well how logical is it to accept a word that has no meaning....by their existance all words have meaning; and to suggest that a word is without meaning is illogical.

And it's not that you would do anything after hearing a song, it's what the song means or represents. It was used to show the connection between the pagan rituals and how I understand how the tree was incorporated into the celebration of christmas. Unless you can show a different path for this tradition, I'll stick with this one. Wether you accept this is totally up to you.

And it is my belief that these things do distract from the message of the birth of Christ and G-ds teachings, if you believe otherwise, thats your decision.

And as far as it being serious...I think matters concerning a persons perceptions of G-d and their soul are a very serious matter and not to be engaged lightly at any time of the year.

[Hunterpoet]

You used the word " tradition " twice. Tradition...1) the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends and customs, information.

2) A long established or inherited way of thinking or acting.

3) a continuing patter of culture beliefs or practices.

Theology:

Among Christians, a body of teachings or any one of them, held to have been delivered by Christ and His apostles.

I hope you can see that " traditions " have their roots in a belief system and that these traditional practices are then rooted in a belief and mean something.

I do see that some traditions have their roots in a belief system.

We have many family traditions, each night as we sit down to dinner each of us has to talk about a good thing that happened that day. Saturday is our family game night, that is also a tradition. My wife's family has the tradition of having a family reunion every other summer.

My computer and car or truck are things that I use to function in this world, much the same as the tools you use, like say your map or radio, which are not used in conjunction to celebrate the birth of Christ.

so we should only be different when it comes to the birth of Christ?

And the issue of the tree only occurs when people want to celebrate the birth of Christ. How does this practice glorify Our Lord? If it means nothing as you say...why do it upon the celebration of His birth?

It glorifies our Lord in the same way as my running does, in the same way as being a good parent does, in the same way that anything I do should. It is a harmless tradition, just like putting lights up on my house, is that wrong also? There can be things done to celebrate the birth of Christ that are not "religious" in nature and I dont think that is a bad thing at all.

And because you have children I will ask, does santa put the gifts under the tree or does Jesus?

mom and dad do.

Again I will say that embracing a practice not condemned by scripture and appearing innocent or haveing no meaning is a loophole the advosary relishes and is a tool he uses to confuse and confound not only those who already believe, but those who have yet to meet Our Lord.

and I will disagree again. I think the confusing and confounding he does is in this very thread, in making something like this a point that we will argue about instead of focusing on more important issues. I will say it once again, if you dont feel it is right, dont do it, but dont judge those that disagree with you.

How clearly will a nonbeliver be able to see Christs teachings in you as you go about practicing and behaving the same way they do? How easy will it be for them to see descrepencies in your witness when you embrace the things of the world that they hold so dear, not just at this time of the year, but all of the year. Can the people around you see that you belong to the Lord, or do you have to tell them?

very clearly as I dont do them in the same way. There are some similarities, but it is not the same. I will use the example of my career as a Marine. I dress like the other Marines, I do many things the same, but I am not a Marine in "same way" that most of them are. I dont use profanity, I dont drink, I am fair and dont stab people in the back to get promoted, etc. so while I might do some of the same things and look the same at times, they all know there is a difference. Christmas is the same way.

Please remind me of were I judged someone here on these boards concerning this matter. I stated my opinion, quoted historical fact, but nowhere did I judge anyone.

I don't understand why you think an open discussion concerning spiritual matters a distraction.

It's obvious you have a certain belief and I have mine...ok fine...I voiced my opinion, you responded with your opinion and facts.

I'm happy to see that you are an example to the others around you. If the Corps is anything like I remember it, you are definately a light.

Grace and Peace be with you always

[Hunterpoet]

First, several folks have on these boards defended the use of a christmas tree at christmas not only this year, but last year as well.

Second, I never said that the DAY is wrong, I merely made a thought provoking suggestion in an earlier post.

My position on the use of a tree stands, you think it ridiculous or ludicrous...ok, thats what you think. I've stated how I think the tree stuff got started and what it means.....now would you be so kind as to tell me how you think this harmless tree glorifies G-d, during the time of celebration of His Sons birth.

Also, I want an apology from you for putting your words in my statement. I never once said you couldn't do anything. I stated an opinion based on my understanding, conviction and belief...AT NO TIME did I say you or anyone else had to conform to my understanding , conviction or beliefs.

You state the use of logic....well how logical is it to accept a word that has no meaning....by their existance all words have meaning; and to suggest that a word is without meaning is illogical.

And it's not that you would do anything after hearing a song, it's what the song means or represents. It was used to show the connection between the pagan rituals and how I understand how the tree was incorporated into the celebration of christmas. Unless you can show a different path for this tradition, I'll stick with this one. Wether you accept this is totally up to you.

And it is my belief that these things do distract from the message of the birth of Christ and G-ds teachings, if you believe otherwise, thats your decision.

And as far as it being serious...I think matters concerning a persons perceptions of G-d and their soul are a very serious matter and not to be engaged lightly at any time of the year.

So what? No one has yet shown how a tree is bad enough that we should get rid of it and not do it anymore. It's not pagan, it's not being worshiped. The concept is very simple. It is only pagan if it is being worshiped. Therefore, if someone likes having a tree, why shouldn't they be able to defend that? There's nothing wrong with the tree. The tree itself does not suddenly become "bad" because someone says it's bad. I can make a way better case for not having a personal computer than anybody can for not having a Christmas tree. Are you going to get rid of your computer now?

By some of the statements you have made in this thread, you are implying that the holiday itself, and the tree is bad, and we should stop doing it. Didn't you say in another thread that we should celebrate it on a different day? Why should I apologize when even your post above is clear that you think Christmas is bad? Or do I just have low comprehension skills?

Whatever "meaning" a song has is irrelevant. You say the Wassail song means alcohol and running through trees warding off evil spirits. Could be, I've never looked into it, however, even so, unless I am doing the drinking and running, it doesn't have that meaning to me. Or anyone else who isn't doing that. The words of the song have no power in and of themselves, they are simply what the person listening to them makes or does not make of them. It isn't any more complicated than that.

In closing, the funny thing is this: There would be absolutely no Christmas tree threads, or threads about the relevance of the holiday, or how "pagan" it was if it weren't for people who take 4 verses out of Jeremiah out of context and build a doctrine around it. The threads wouldn't be here at all if it weren't for a few people that for some reason feel threatened by this holiday and feel that it's their duty to stamp it out.

By all means, make your case for getting rid of the computer. I will take everything you say into consideration, consider the consequences those suggestions will have on my life and business and act accordingly.

I disagree, I have never said that the holiday or the tree are bad and any implication of such is of your own interpertation.

And yes you do owe me an apology, you took what I said and added your own words, which changed the meaning of my statement to further your arguement. I merely suggested in another thread that it might be benificial if Christmas were celebrated independently of the secular christmas, I never said it should be done. It was a suggestion in reponse to the original post, nothing more.

I'm not threatened by this holiday or christmas trees. Why do you state such a thing as this, especially when I have never said that I was threatened.

Another point is I have never said the celebration of christmas was pagan. Many of the christmas traditions have pagan origin, but I never stated that the celebration of Christmas was pagan.

If you are comfortable with decorating trees and hanging wreaths , go for it. If you think this glorifies G-d and helps people to learn about Christ, by all means continue on.

If you are opposed to an open discussion about christmas trees and the day a celebration occurs, well, don't participate, ignore it.

I don't believe anyone here is actively trying to rid the world of Christmas day, trees or the celebration of Christs birth.

Grace and Peace be with you always.

[PreciousRubi]

Is it truth?

I dont believe it is....

Does all of Christendom know that it is not truth?

I'm pretty certain they do.

is what the truth?

is it the truth that Dec 25 is the day that we have chosen to celebrate the birth of our Lord? yes that is the truth.

Is it the truth that we dont really know what day he was born on? yes, that is the truth also.

is is the truth that no one has said "this is the day that Jesus was born"? yes that is the truth also.

what is not the truth?

Massorite has put forth evidence directly from the pages of God's Word, pointing toward the 'real' time of Jesus' birth...

Why not ditch the false day and observe the 'truth'?

Edited December 19, 2008 by PreciousRubi

[Botz]

Does anyone seriously think the L-rd is concerned when we celebrate His birthday, or that we hold such importance to a time and date, so that we are more concerned with some sort of personal exactitude, that totally detracts from the actual fact of His birth.

If there was some sort of Biblical stipulation that required a precise code of practice on an exact day, do you not think all Believer's would not want to obey and follow that. The fact is we are happy to use this period to joyfully remember and celebrate the good news that Jesus was born into this world, so that we might be born again into the next.

[EricH]

Does anyone seriously think the L-rd is concerned when we celebrate His birthday, or that we hold such importance to a time and date, so that we are more concerned with some sort of personal exactitude, that totally detracts from the actual fact of His birth.

If there was some sort of Biblical stipulation that required a precise code of practice on an exact day, do you not think all Believer's would not want to obey and follow that. The fact is we are happy to use this period to joyfully remember and celebrate the good news that Jesus was born into this world, so that we might be born again into the next.

Exactly!!

But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Titus 3:9 HCSB

[Massorite]

Massorite has put forth evidence directly from the pages of God's Word, pointing toward the 'real' time of Jesus' birth...

Why not ditch the false day and observe the 'truth'?

Because we don

[Massorite]

Massorite has put forth evidence directly from the pages of God's Word, pointing toward the 'real' time of Jesus' birth...

Why not ditch the false day and observe the 'truth'?

Because we don

[Massorite]

Massorite has put forth evidence directly from the pages of God's Word, pointing toward the 'real' time of Jesus' birth...

Why not ditch the false day and observe the 'truth'?

Are we not to observe this 'truth' every single day in our Christian walk? Why fixate on Christmas day? The following is directly from God's word as well, but strangely, it's never touched upon by those wishing to demonize certain days, and call everything under the sun that they don't like "pagan."

Colossians 2:13-17 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The enemy already stands defeated, so any bantering about pagan origins is moot. There is no worship of the holiday itself or the tree, or any of the other Christmas traditions. We are worshiping Christ. That has been demonstrated time after time, so it isn't pagan. That argument carries no weight. As Gator says, we would be guessing no matter which day we picked. We have freedom through Jesus, not bondage. As long as we worship Christ in whatever we do, anything else is academic, including the day, and what the holiday may have started out as. It's God's creation, not the enemies. So we do not have to look around or dig through history books to make sure this day or tradition or whatever it is wasn't used by pagans for something else. That whole line of argument is irrelevant. Jesus has already triumphed over all that, and as His children, we share in that victory.

Is this not also God's Word?

There is still spiritual warfare going on and it is a fight for the souls of every living human on earth. That is why in 2 Thessalonians that there is going to be a great falling away. That means that in the future there is going to be a great number of Christians who are going to be deceived and depart from the faith or IE Give up faith in the Jesus we know to day. It is a much bigger picture then just Christ/mass. Pagan ritual and pagan practices in the body of Christ is but a small part of what will bring about the "Great Falling Away" but it is still a part that has been strong enough to convince Christians to reject the word of God and practice pagan rituals anyways. So defeated or not the evil that is satan is consuming the world and when the world become evil enough, Christ will return and take His people out of evil world satan and his ways have brought about.

You know what Cobalt? Out of nearly 500 views there are only 5 or 6 worthy members who object to what I stated enough to shoot it down.

Five or Six who have chosen to reject the word of God out of nearly 500 is actually wonderful.. Because 500 Christians absorbed into their minds the scriptures, factual evidences and just plain truth.

Its not just about Christmas day for me. Christmas day is just one among several. Lent and Easter are next. Then comes Valentine day. It just happens to the Christ/mass season.

My goal is a accomplished here and God has planted many seeds for the future. Because the war against Christ/mass is gaining strength. Last years there was only one or to who agreed with me. This year there several more then last year. I know that just because they didn't speak out that they agreed with me. But I also know that I gave them some food for some very serious thought.

So Praise God For He Is Worthy To Be Praised and I am Lifting Up His Holy Name.

Because of the God Job that He has given me. I get ridiculed and put down and to be honest it makes me feel depressed at times. But you know 500 reviews and only 5 or 6 rejections is its own just reward and I am blessed by those figures. Can't what till next year.

Thank you so much for defending the word of God Rubi for you are Precious

Be Blessed My Brother From Another Mother