Your thoughts please.====>

[Botz]

The subject and the detail included in the History of the Garden of Eden is totally incredible/awesome, and provides each of us with a lifetime of research as we get to see more of G-d, His ways and our condition.

I don't want to detract from what has been said, or where the thread is going, but as many people know, Rabbis have for many centuries tried to preserve the commands of G-d, and at the same time protect them by adding other commands that will not even let a person get close to breaking G-ds command.

Many people claim Eve added to the Word of G-d by saying they couldn't even touch the fruit.

But as has been pointed out, it might well have been Adam that taught her this...which would make his action

the first of its kind recorded, that the Rabbis emulated, either consciously or unconsciously.

They would probably have gone further and said not to even look at the tree...in fact not to go near it...in fact stay away from the middle of the garden etc. Its quite a righteous way of doing things really...putting up fences.

There are other possibilities...but this is the one that really struck me.

[ColleenLovesMischief]

Can you provide Biblical support for the impression that you have that we pre-existed our conception?

Peace,

Dave

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In order to return we had to be there to begin with.

[Matthitjah]

Can you provide Biblical support for the impression that you have that we pre-existed our conception?

Peace,

Dave

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In order to return we had to be there to begin with.

Grace to you,

That scripture has more to do with this;

Ge

[Guard12n]

Can you provide Biblical support for the impression that you have that we pre-existed our conception?

I think it might help to explain the beginning from the beginning.

Genesis 1:3 - God created Christ... (the light)

Genesis 1:26 - God and Christ ("let us create") created spiritual "MAN" (our spirit self being both Male and Female) in his own image

Genesis 2:7 - Christ with God's blessing created man in human form with a living soul (Adam)

Genesis 2:22 - Christ with God's blessing splits man into male and female (the hebrew word for rib also means side)

Genesis 2:25 - They were both naked and not ashamed (neither had begun to move away from god by choosing selfish actions)

_______________________________

Ephesians 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Ephesians 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

_______________________________

Let me know if this helps any. I see what you are asking and like where you are going.

guard12n

[Matthitjah]

Can you provide Biblical support for the impression that you have that we pre-existed our conception?

I think it might help to explain the beginning from the beginning.

Genesis 1:3 - God created Christ... (the light)

Genesis 1:26 - God and Christ ("let us create") created spiritual "MAN" (our spirit self being both Male and Female) in his own image

Genesis 2:7 - Christ with God's blessing created man in human form with a living soul (Adam)

Genesis 2:22 - Christ with God's blessing splits man into male and female (the hebrew word for rib also means side)

Genesis 2:25 - They were both naked and not ashamed (neither had begun to move away from god by choosing selfish actions)

_______________________________

Ephesians 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Ephesians 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

_______________________________

Let me know if this helps any. I see what you are asking and like where you are going.

guard12n

Grace to you,

Yes, it explains a alot.

God did not Create Christ. Christ is God.

Joh

[EricH]

Just had a thought, hope this makes sense. Hope you can find it in your heart to touch base with these.

Adam allowed Eve to tempt him to share the apple! (If it was an apple) of the tree that they were told not to touch. His sin was greater.

As it is in these times we men have allowed women (Wives girl, friends, friends) to dominate because of Political Correctness built up over time through our (Men's ) compliance & compromise.

I am basically lazy with not a lot of 'get up & go'. So to be in the latter situation is a cop out for me, but things in our relationship have improved greatly for both of us over the years.

I'm 73 with still a lot to learn.

Thank God for the Holy Spirit.

Even the discussion of who was to blame in the Garden and whose sin was greater is a singn of our depravity. The fall basically introduced futility and strife into creation. the man would now be at odds with his work environment and be subject to futility in it. The woman would be at odds with her husband and subject to futility in an eternal quest for domination. The curse is very enlightening;

He said to the woman: I will intensify your labor pains; you will bear children in anguish. Your desire will be for your husband, yet he will dominate you.

Genesis 3:16 HCSB

The hebrew word for "desire" is used in Genesis 4:7 where God described in as having a desire for Cain. It speaks of a desire to control. So sin introduced a situation where the woman would seek to control men and they would respond with domination.

[EricH]

Mass,

That's a really good observation but I think that the part about God knowing us before He formed us has more to do with Him conceiving us in His minds eye.

That's a really deep thought and I am looking for clarification about us being spirit beings before being translated to earth.

Peace,

Dave

Historically there have been 3 views regarding the origin of our souls:

1. Creationism - this view is that God creates a new soul for each person and places it in the person's body at some point between conception and birth (Roman Catholic View as well as Calvin).

2. Traducianism - this view maintains that the sould as well as the body are inherited from the fother and mother at the point of conception (Luther and Lutherans held this view as well as most protestants).

3. Pre-existentianism - this view holds that the souls of people exist in heaven long before they are conceived. God brings the soul to earth to be joined with the body some time after conception

No major protestant or catholic theologian holds to the third option. It borders on ideas found in Eastern religions and reincarnation. Either Creationism or Traducianism may be correct and there are verses that can be presented that support both. Nothing is definitive. There is no biblical evidence to support Pre-existianism.

[stacey c]

Just had a thought, hope this makes sense. Hope you can find it in your heart to touch base with these.

Adam allowed Eve to tempt him to share the apple! (If it was an apple) of the tree that they were told not to touch. His sin was greater.

As it is in these times we men have allowed women (Wives girl, friends, friends) to dominate because of Political Correctness built up over time through our (Men's ) compliance & compromise.

I am basically lazy with not a lot of 'get up & go'. So to be in the latter situation is a cop out for me, but things in our relationship have improved greatly for both of us over the years.

I'm 73 with still a lot to learn.

Thank God for the Holy Spirit.

Even the discussion of who was to blame in the Garden and whose sin was greater is a singn of our depravity. The fall basically introduced futility and strife into creation. the man would now be at odds with his work environment and be subject to futility in it. The woman would be at odds with her husband and subject to futility in an eternal quest for domination. The curse is very enlightening;

He said to the woman: I will intensify your labor pains; you will bear children in anguish. Your desire will be for your husband, yet he will dominate you.

Genesis 3:16 HCSB

The hebrew word for "desire" is used in Genesis 4:7 where God described in as having a desire for Cain. It speaks of a desire to control. So sin introduced a situation where the woman would seek to control men and they would respond with domination.

Amen EricH.

I always heard it referred to as the Jezebel spirit. Jezebel used her wiles and deceit to control her husband and he was weak enought to let her.

The Bible states God's ways are not our ways..... everything in our human nature is contrary to the nature of God. Natural mind tells us that women will not be controlled and men want to be mothered. It goes against the order that God has placed in His Word.

[Guard12n]

God did not Create Christ. Christ is God.

If this is true, then how would the passages "only begotten son of god" and "we are all brothers and sisters in Christ" fit in?

guard12n

[Massorite]

I'm under the impression that we were spirits that were separated into male and female when we entered the earth. I believe the relationship between men and women is similar to the sun and earth. It appears that you are correct about the current process... men do chase women, but I believe it was and needs to return to the other way around. Similar to how the sun gives heat, light, gravity, and other forms of energy to the earth, men should be a beacon in the darkness giving unselfishly to our wife and children and showing love in proper ways (without expecting a return of praise or sex).

If done correctly, then the option is there for the woman to stop desiring the "chase" and begin using the husband's love to create (children, relationships, etc.) - Just like the relationship with the earth and all of us.

Back to the "Apple" issue with eve... if /when we were one, both male and female, the male part being the center and the female part surrounding the center, what part might have "fallen" first if changes occurred to interrupt the perfect harmony of the spirit? It makes sense to me to assume that the earth would be struck or shifted by an outside event before the sun is affected.

my two cents...

Guard12n

Grace to you,

I'm under the impression that we were spirits that were separated into male and female when we entered the earth.

Can you provide Biblical support for the impression that you have that we pre-existed our conception?

Peace,

Dave

Very Good Matt. I have often wondered the same thing. The bible does say that God knew us BEFORE we were in our mothers womb. Have you ever met someone and just knew that you had met this person before? I never had those feelings before I was saved.

Mass,

That's a really good observation but I think that the part about God knowing us before He formed us has more to do with Him conceiving us in His minds eye.

That's a really deep thought and I am looking for clarification about us being spirit beings before being translated to earth.

Peace,

Dave

I agree that could be a possibility.

How about this as food for thought. In the parable of the rich man a Lazarus the rich man is in hell and the bible says that he lifts his eyes and see's Lazarus resting in ths bossum of Abraham. Then he asks Abraham to send Lazarus so he can put a drop of water on his tongue because he is in torments.

I am not controdicting the bible, I am making an observation here. If when we die our body goes back to the dust as the bible says it does then what is the rich man doing with eye balls and a tongue? And how is it that he can feel torments with no body?