I have a question.

[Guest HIS girl]

Some people think that they are saved but are not. That is called self deception. If a person is going to heaven they do not have a question about it. They know.

I KNOW that .

My question was in regards to the pre-creation selection notion.

With THAT logic - many would be deceived - even after thinking they are the "chosen ones."

Also - if you were "chosen" many would be sinning - because they think they are untouchable...doesn't matter what sin they commit because they were predestined to be in Paradise. The whole notion is distorted.

When you get down to it - there is no point for Jesus having died on our behalf. Why would He have to if pre-selection was in place? His death signifies the fact He is reconciling ALL to Him - so ALL are available to spending eternity with Him/the Father. The original plan of God's.

[larryt]

Hi Hg,

Once again, not the original plan - if the "chosen" pre-creation theory works - then the Fall of man was designed by God in order for man to be seperate from God.

You seem to premise your reasoning on the "ORIGINAL PLAN." Where do you come up with this original plan and what is it? And I need scripture to see what it is you are trying to say?

I reject that outright.

So all men are not condemned in Adam????

No it is not the consequence of being born in Adam - simply for the fact that there is restoration available to us - IF we accept through our freewill the Holy Spirits invitation to eternal life through Jesus - God in flesh. Hell is the consequence for those who reject Christ.

Would you show where you get the idea that man is free to choose to follow God even if left to his own devices?

HIS CHILDREN being ANYONE who accepts Him.

His children being anyone that is chosen by God believes the Gospel.

larryt - if YOU are chosen, how do you know for sure? If I'm NOT chosen, how do I know? Do you think God would allow me to think I AM chosen, then to find out later I'm going to Hell?.....Does He take pleasure in THAT?

That's deceitful. That's not God.

There is another thread that deals with that issue. You might think that is deceitful and not God. The idols that are in the apostate church in the last days are idols of the imagination. They are gods that we make up in our minds to our own liking and not the God of the Bible. I want to know God as He is and not like I want Him to be. You are continually rewording what I am saying to fit your own thinking. I am not saying the same thing that you are rewording. post #'s 109, 110, 119 are an example. I am saying one thing and you reword it and try to make me say something else. I am trying to say just what I mean and nothing more. You are drawing conclusions from what I say based on what you believe about God.

God says outright that He make the wicked for the day of jevil.

Pr 16:4

[Guest HIS girl]

'larryt'

You seem to premise your reasoning on the "ORIGINAL PLAN." Where do you come up with this original plan and what is it? And I need scripture to see what it is you are trying to say?

I reject that outright.

I've said it all along and I'll say it again - the original plan of God having a relationship with US...otherwise what's this thing called LIFE all about?

So all men are not condemned in Adam????

My point is not eternally condemned because there is HOPE for restoration. If there was NO hope then yes - it would be eternal damnation.

Would you show where you get the idea that man is free to choose to follow God even if left to his own devices?

So you think even atheists have never pondered the notion of a Higher Power - the existence of God? I guess what you are saying that we only come to God by being drawn by the Holy Spirit...do you ever consider that when we ponder the meaning of life that THEN the Holy Spirit steps in and woos you?

His children being anyone that is chosen by God believes the Gospel.

Again - the word chosen.

He chose us all in the beginning because we were birthed out of His mind. Don't you see?

[larryt]

Some people think that they are saved but are not. That is called self deception. If a person is going to heaven they do not have a question about it. They know.

I KNOW that .

My question was in regards to the pre-creation selection notion.

With THAT logic - many would be deceived - even after thinking they are the "chosen ones."

Also - if you were "chosen" many would be sinning - because they think they are untouchable...doesn't matter what sin they commit because they were predestined to be in Paradise. The whole notion is distorted.

When you get down to it - there is no point for Jesus having died on our behalf. Why would He have to if pre-selection was in place? His death signifies the fact He is reconciling ALL to Him - so ALL are available to spending eternity with Him/the Father. The original plan of God's.

Hi Hg,

If you want a logical god you can have one that is a figment of the logical mind. ( I am not being personal please don't take it that way.)

Jesus said that My sheep know me and follow me. The goats don't. The tares look like wheat, but are not. And Jesus said" "I NEVER knew you" to a group that will say they are His but are deceived.

And God forbid that we should continue in sin as Paul says. That is the slander that, those that cannot come to grips with the God of Sovereign Grace, come up with. It is your notion that is distorted about what the doctrine of election is.

Some suggested reading.

Doctrine of Election

The Sovereignty of God

both by A. Pink. This is quite extensive and in depth. I am not saying you have to believe it as he says but you might come to understand where some of us are coming from.

The real offensiveness of the Gospel is that God is Sovereign and decides who is saved out of those that are already damned, without any consideration for their condition, but according to His own determination.

LT

[larryt]

'larryt'

You seem to premise your reasoning on the "ORIGINAL PLAN." Where do you come up with this original plan and what is it? And I need scripture to see what it is you are trying to say?

I reject that outright.

I've said it all along and I'll say it again - the original plan of God having a relationship with US...otherwise what's this thing called LIFE all about?

So all men are not condemned in Adam????

My point is not eternally condemned because there is HOPE for restoration. If there was NO hope then yes - it would be eternal damnation.

Would you show where you get the idea that man is free to choose to follow God even if left to his own devices?

So you think even atheists have never pondered the notion of a Higher Power - the existence of God? I guess what you are saying that we only come to God by being drawn by the Holy Spirit...do you ever consider that when we ponder the meaning of life that THEN the Holy Spirit steps in and woos you?

His children being anyone that is chosen by God believes the Gospel.

Again - the word chosen.

He chose us all in the beginning because we were birthed out of His mind. Don't you see?

Are you coming up with these ideas off the top of your head or do you base them on scripture. If on scripture which ones. you very seldom if ever post anything to base your reasoning on. The only conclusion I come up with is that is off the top of you head. Are these your personal ideas or do you really base them on scripture?

I asked several questions and you answer me with questions. That is no answer and is deceptive. Try answering some of my questions if you would please.

LT

[P_Joseph]

Free will!

[Guest HIS girl]

'larryt'

You seem to premise your reasoning on the "ORIGINAL PLAN." Where do you come up with this original plan and what is it? And I need scripture to see what it is you are trying to say?

I reject that outright.

I've said it all along and I'll say it again - the original plan of God having a relationship with US...otherwise what's this thing called LIFE all about?

So all men are not condemned in Adam????

My point is not eternally condemned because there is HOPE for restoration. If there was NO hope then yes - it would be eternal damnation.

Would you show where you get the idea that man is free to choose to follow God even if left to his own devices?

So you think even atheists have never pondered the notion of a Higher Power - the existence of God? I guess what you are saying that we only come to God by being drawn by the Holy Spirit...do you ever consider that when we ponder the meaning of life that THEN the Holy Spirit steps in and woos you?

His children being anyone that is chosen by God believes the Gospel.

Again - the word chosen.

He chose us all in the beginning because we were birthed out of His mind. Don't you see?

Are you coming up with these ideas off the top of your head or do you base them on scripture. If on scripture which ones. you very seldom if ever post anything to base your reasoning on. The only conclusion I come up with is that is off the top of you head. Are these your personal ideas or do you really base them on scripture?

I asked several questions and you answer me with questions. That is no answer and is deceptive. Try answering some of my questions if you would please.

LT

Even when reading the SAME Bible - I notice Believers tend to have different views...and no I'm not just making them up - I DO hold these views just from reading the Bible and I will produce Scripture for you when I come back on-line. I have seen many present Scripture on WB and still that doesn't mean a thing because of THEIR interpretation of it -

I will check back in soon.

[Smalcald]

'larryt'

Man in Adam is bound for eternal damnation not because they don't reconcile, but because they are already dead because of Adam's sin. They are already dead, without hope, blind and naked. If God does not do something to change that condition they will remain that way.

Doesn't that comment fly in the face of being chosen pre-creation? It sure reads that way.

Makes sense - considering God wants to take man back to the ORIGINAL plan - we (ALL) with Him for eternity.

larryt-

Not chosen to damnation. All are already damned.

Once again, not the original plan - if the "chosen" pre-creation theory works - then the Fall of man was designed by God in order for man to be seperate from God.

I reject that outright.

In the earth are all these vile creatures call man that are scheduled for destruction. God looks in the bucket and decides that He will be gracious and merciful and decides to pull some of the creatures out of the bucket and change them for His purpose and only because He has decided to do so.

Some?

Change them for His purpose - what's that purpose and what's the purpose of the unchosen?

HIS girl

Eternal seperation from God in Hell is the consequence of rejecting the Author of Life. I have no problem with that.

larryt

No that is not what I said. It is the consequence of being born in Adam. If you are born you are on your way to hell because Adam sinned.

No it is not the consequence of being born in Adam - simply for the fact that there is restoration available to us - IF we accept through our freewill the Holy Spirits invitation to eternal life through Jesus - God in flesh. Hell is the consequence for those who reject Christ.

It is His pleasure to give us (His children) good things and thus we benefit from it - a purpose.

LT

HIS CHILDREN being ANYONE who accepts Him.

larryt - if YOU are chosen, how do you know for sure? If I'm NOT chosen, how do I know? Do you think God would allow me to think I AM chosen, then to find out later I'm going to Hell?.....Does He take pleasure in THAT?

That's deceitful. That's not God.

Some people think that they are saved but are not. That is called self deception. If a person is going to heaven they do not have a question about it. They know.

Boy, I don't want to sidetrack this but I just can't help it!

I would disagree, there are many people who firmly think they KNOW, that have no question in their mind that they are going to heaven are fully convinced that they are saved; who are not going to heaven and are not saved. Christ speaks of these people; they are shocked at His coming when He tells them He does not know them because their deeds were evil.

We can think we are saved all we want, the only way we can know is by our obedience and love of His commandments. If we say we love Him and do not strive to keep His commandments we are a liar according to scripture; and are in deep self deceit and frankly much danger. On the other side many people who have fear of hell and a fear of their own souls salvation are indeed going to heaven, they just need to spend more time in scripture taking comfort from His words and promises.

How does this relate to the topic at hand? I still believe that a choice is involved, but it is a choice to run from the call of Christ, it is not a choice to have faith or not.

[larryt]

Free will!

Hi P_J,

Please define free will. And if you would check out doctrine thread on where does good come from.

LT

[kross]

'larryt'

Man in Adam is bound for eternal damnation not because they don't reconcile, but because they are already dead because of Adam's sin. They are already dead, without hope, blind and naked. If God does not do something to change that condition they will remain that way.

Doesn't that comment fly in the face of being chosen pre-creation? It sure reads that way.

Makes sense - considering God wants to take man back to the ORIGINAL plan - we (ALL) with Him for eternity.

larryt-

Not chosen to damnation. All are already damned.

Once again, not the original plan - if the "chosen" pre-creation theory works - then the Fall of man was designed by God in order for man to be seperate from God.

I reject that outright.

In the earth are all these vile creatures call man that are scheduled for destruction. God looks in the bucket and decides that He will be gracious and merciful and decides to pull some of the creatures out of the bucket and change them for His purpose and only because He has decided to do so.

Some?

Change them for His purpose - what's that purpose and what's the purpose of the unchosen?

HIS girl

Eternal seperation from God in Hell is the consequence of rejecting the Author of Life. I have no problem with that.

larryt

No that is not what I said. It is the consequence of being born in Adam. If you are born you are on your way to hell because Adam sinned.

No it is not the consequence of being born in Adam - simply for the fact that there is restoration available to us - IF we accept through our freewill the Holy Spirits invitation to eternal life through Jesus - God in flesh. Hell is the consequence for those who reject Christ.

It is His pleasure to give us (His children) good things and thus we benefit from it - a purpose.

LT

HIS CHILDREN being ANYONE who accepts Him.

larryt - if YOU are chosen, how do you know for sure? If I'm NOT chosen, how do I know? Do you think God would allow me to think I AM chosen, then to find out later I'm going to Hell?.....Does He take pleasure in THAT?

That's deceitful. That's not God.

JUst a note,

You have already stated that "HIS CHILDREN" is anyone who accepts HIM.

Why would that change if the only ones who accept HIM are chosen by HIM?

How do you know for sure if you are saved? Your question here does not hinge on who chose who. If you have responded to the call of salvation, than you are saved. If you are saved, it is because you responded to the effectual call of CHRIST to be saved. This is a simple truth.